From gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca  Tue Dec  1 12:24:28 2009
From: gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca (Gilbert E. Detillieux)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 12:24:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [RndTbl] MUUG Meeting, Dec 8, 7:30pm -- SuseStudio
Message-ID: <200912011824.nB1IOSD14348@iron.cs.umanitoba.ca>

The Manitoba UNIX User Group (MUUG) will be holding its next monthly
meeting on Tuesday, December 8.  The meeting topic for this month is
as follows:

   SuseStudio

   SuseStudio is an online virtual appliance builder based on OpenSUSE.
   "Build an appliance or your own custom Linux distro with a few mouse
   clicks. Customize it to your heart's content, and share it with the
   world!" It is quite astonishing what this site/tool can do with a
   few mouse clicks.

   John  Lange will demo, from start to finish, the creation of a
   completely custom Linux distribution. As a bonus, OpenSUSE 11.2 was
   just released and John will be using it for the demo just to give
   you a little taste of what it's like.

   Before the break, as this month's RTFM topic, Gilbert Detillieux
   will cover the find(1) and xargs(1) commands.

The group holds its general meetings at 7:30pm on the second Tuesday of
every month from September to June.  (There are no meetings in July and
August.) Meetings are open to the general public; you don't have to be a
MUUG member to attend.

   **********************************************************************
   Please note our meeting location: The IBM offices, at 400 Ellice Ave.
   (between Edmonton and Kennedy). When you arrive, you will have to
   sign in at the reception desk, and then wait for someone to take you
   (in groups) to the meeting room. Please try to arrive by about 7:15pm, 
   so the meeting can start promptly at 7:30pm. Don't be late, or you may
   not get in.  (But don't come too early either, since security may not
   be there to let you in before 7:15 or so.) Non-members may be required
   to show photo ID at the security desk.

   Limited parking is available for free on the street, either on Ellice
   Ave. or on some of the intersecting streets. Indoor parking is also
   available nearby, at Portage Place, for $5.00 for the evening. Bicycle
   parking is available in a bike rack under video surveillance located
   behind the building on Webb Place.
   **********************************************************************

For more information about MUUG, and its monthly meetings, check out their
Web server:

	http://www.muug.mb.ca/

Help us promote this month's meeting, by putting this poster up on your
workplace bulletin board or other suitable public message board:

	http://www.muug.mb.ca/meetings/MUUGmeeting.pdf

-- 
Gilbert E. Detillieux		E-mail: <gedetil at muug.mb.ca>
Manitoba UNIX User Group	Web:	http://www.muug.mb.ca/
PO Box 130 St-Boniface		Phone:  (204)474-8161
Winnipeg MB CANADA  R2H 3B4	Fax:    (204)474-7609

From gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca  Wed Dec  2 13:41:26 2009
From: gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca (Gilbert E. Detillieux)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 13:41:26 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Fwd: USENIX TaPP '10 Submissions Deadline Approaching
Message-ID: <4B16C2E6.7050605@cs.umanitoba.ca>

FYI...

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Board] USENIX TaPP '10 Submissions Deadline Approaching
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:29:26 -0800
From: Lionel Garth Jones <lgj at usenix.org>

We're writing to remind you that the submissions deadline for the 2nd
USENIX Workshop on the Theory and Practice of Provenance (TaPP '10) is
approaching. Please submit all work by December 14, 2009, 11:59 p.m.
PST.

More information and submission guidelines are available at
http://www.usenix.org/tapp10/cfpb

TaPP '10 will bring together researchers and practitioners doing
innovative work in the area of provenance. Provenance, or
meta-information about computations, computer systems, database queries,
scientific workflows, and so on, is emerging as a central issue in a
number of disciplines. The TaPP workshop series builds upon a set of
Workshops on Principles of Provenance organized in 2007-2009, which
helped raise the profile of this area within diverse research
communities, such as databases, security, and programming languages. We
hope to attract serious cross-disciplinary, foundational, and highly
speculative research and to facilitate needed interaction with the
broader systems community and with industry.

The Program Committee invites you to submit either full papers
describing relatively mature work or short papers on ongoing work. We
welcome submissions addressing research problems involving provenance in
any area of computer science, including but not limited to:

- Databases
- Programming languages and software engineering
- Systems and security
- Workflows/scientific computation

We look forward to receiving your submissions!

Sincerely,

Margo Seltzer, Harvard School of Engineering and Applied Sciences
Wang-Chiew Tan, University of California, Santa Cruz
TaPP '10 Program Chairs
tapp10chairs at usenix.org

------------------------------------------------------------------
TaPP '10 Call for Papers
2nd USENIX Workshop on the Theory and Practice of Provenance
(TaPP '10)
February 22, 2010, San Jose, CA
http://www.usenix.org/tapp10/cfpb
Submissions deadline: December 14, 2009
Sponsored by USENIX in cooperation with ACM SIGOPS and ACM SIGPLAN
------------------------------------------------------------------


From ve4drk at gmail.com  Sun Dec  6 13:37:04 2009
From: ve4drk at gmail.com (Dan Keizer)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 13:37:04 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] FON spots
Message-ID: <daf1b8090912061137n165f263o66bd8a85a51b7723@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there -- I know some of you (you know who you are :-)  use the FON
router ...

with the mapview that's on their site, its always appeared that in
order to locate the locations, you have to zoom in and then pan-around
... if you zoom out just a little bit, it disables the location
display of the fon spots ... anyone know if this is adjustable or not?

btw: the new fon 2.0 router -- anyone buy one yet and have any feedback?

Dan.

From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 11:33:18 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:33:18 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
Message-ID: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>

	The CLL is setting up a public access machine in the next couple of 
weeks. It is installed with Mint 8 (a multimedia Ubuntu fork). I would 
like to set up a couple of init scripts. The first will delete the 
public account home directory and copy a "clean" version in its place 
each time the computer starts. The second will shut down the computer 
after half an hour of use.

	I haven't touched on cron since university 20 years ago and I've never 
written an init script. Having written a few shell scripts I know the 
copy script should be very simple. I'm not sure how to set up the timer 
script or make them run on start up. Would anybody be able to fire off 
some quick directions?

	This may be a "foot in the door" situation.

				Later
				Mike

From swalberg at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 11:47:06 2009
From: swalberg at gmail.com (Sean Walberg)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 11:47:06 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>

A foot in the door for more unpaid work?

OTTOMH:

Your user is publicuser. Store your skeleton in /usr/local/etc/publicuser.

In rc.local or whatever Mint calls it:

rm -rf /home/publicuser
(cd /usr/local/etc && tar -cf - publicuser) | (cd /home && tar -xf -)

In the skeleton's .bashrc

echo "reboot" | at now + 30 minutes

I'd hate to be around when someone is typing an email at T+00:30:01 though.
Maybe a few minutes googling for "linux kiosk" will find a far more elegant
solution. Not sure if you chose Mint because you like it or you have a
particular need, but there appear to be some custom distributions or
packages made for this exact purpose.

This also assumes the user can reboot the computer from the command line. It
works in Red Hat/Fedora.

Sean

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Mike Pfaiffer <high.res.mike at gmail.com>wrote:

>        The CLL is setting up a public access machine in the next couple of
> weeks. It is installed with Mint 8 (a multimedia Ubuntu fork). I would
> like to set up a couple of init scripts. The first will delete the
> public account home directory and copy a "clean" version in its place
> each time the computer starts. The second will shut down the computer
> after half an hour of use.
>
>        I haven't touched on cron since university 20 years ago and I've
> never
> written an init script. Having written a few shell scripts I know the
> copy script should be very simple. I'm not sure how to set up the timer
> script or make them run on start up. Would anybody be able to fire off
> some quick directions?
>
>        This may be a "foot in the door" situation.
>
>                                Later
>                                Mike
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>



-- 
Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com>    http://ertw.com/
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From sean at tinfoilhat.ca  Mon Dec  7 11:52:27 2009
From: sean at tinfoilhat.ca (Sean Cody)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 11:52:27 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>
	<cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18CC90CF-BA5E-4702-893C-B80E92C6C028@tinfoilhat.ca>

I was just typing something almost identical! 

Check out /etc/init.d/README and use /etc/init.d/rc.local (if Mint correponds with /etc/ layout of Ubuntu Server).

Assuming you are in init 5 you can just TERM/HUP (can't remember which, don't use X much) the root X process and it will respawn... but doing via cron is kinda fugly.

Calculate the 'limit' and inject that into root's cron (root so the user can't disable it).  Cron runs at specific times so you need to calculate when to run it and specify it exactly such that if I log in at 9:30am (today) the following happens (you need to generate the first four numbers [minute,hour,day of month,month, day of week as per crontab(5)]):
	echo "0 10 6 12 * pkill -TERM Xserver" | sudo crontab -e 

Using at(1) is a better option but do it as a wheel priviledged user... does wheel even translate to Linux?? (sry.. BSD thing, if not use root).

On 2009-12-07, at 11:47 AM, Sean Walberg wrote:

> A foot in the door for more unpaid work?
> 
> OTTOMH:
> 
> Your user is publicuser. Store your skeleton in /usr/local/etc/publicuser. 
> 
> In rc.local or whatever Mint calls it:
> 
> rm -rf /home/publicuser
> (cd /usr/local/etc && tar -cf - publicuser) | (cd /home && tar -xf -)
> 
> In the skeleton's .bashrc
> 
> echo "reboot" | at now + 30 minutes
> 
> I'd hate to be around when someone is typing an email at T+00:30:01 though. Maybe a few minutes googling for "linux kiosk" will find a far more elegant solution. Not sure if you chose Mint because you like it or you have a particular need, but there appear to be some custom distributions or packages made for this exact purpose.
> 
> This also assumes the user can reboot the computer from the command line. It works in Red Hat/Fedora.
> 
> Sean
> 
> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Mike Pfaiffer <high.res.mike at gmail.com> wrote:
>        The CLL is setting up a public access machine in the next couple of
> weeks. It is installed with Mint 8 (a multimedia Ubuntu fork). I would
> like to set up a couple of init scripts. The first will delete the
> public account home directory and copy a "clean" version in its place
> each time the computer starts. The second will shut down the computer
> after half an hour of use.
> 
>        I haven't touched on cron since university 20 years ago and I've never
> written an init script. Having written a few shell scripts I know the
> copy script should be very simple. I'm not sure how to set up the timer
> script or make them run on start up. Would anybody be able to fire off
> some quick directions?
> 
>        This may be a "foot in the door" situation.
> 
>                                Later
>                                Mike
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com>    http://ertw.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable

-- 
Sean


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From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 12:02:25 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 12:02:25 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>
	<cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B1D4331.1030002@gmail.com>

Sean Walberg wrote:
> A foot in the door for more unpaid work?
> 
> OTTOMH:

	Not sure what this acronym stands for.

> Your user is publicuser. Store your skeleton in /usr/local/etc/publicuser. 
> 
> In rc.local or whatever Mint calls it:
> 
> rm -rf /home/publicuser
> (cd /usr/local/etc && tar -cf - publicuser) | (cd /home && tar -xf -)
> 
> In the skeleton's .bashrc
> 
> echo "reboot" | at now + 30 minutes
> 
> I'd hate to be around when someone is typing an email at T+00:30:01 
> though. Maybe a few minutes googling for "linux kiosk" will find a far 
> more elegant solution. Not sure if you chose Mint because you like it or 
> you have a particular need, but there appear to be some custom 
> distributions or packages made for this exact purpose.

	The idea is to limit usage to 30 minutes to give other people a chance 
at the machine. There are only two machines and the other /may/ be moved 
to Linux if this one works out.

	The reason for Mint is because it's what we had around. We could have 
gone with Kubuntu 9.10 but there seem to be some issues which aren't in 
Mint 8. The kiosk idea sounds worth looking at. If it's what we're 
looking for I'll have to convince the people in charge to move from Mint 
to "kiosk".

> This also assumes the user can reboot the computer from the command 
> line. It works in Red Hat/Fedora.

	It should. I'll find out shortly.

> Sean

	Thanks for the help. I'll be able to access the machine on Friday. 
We'll see what happens then.

				Later
				Mike



> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Mike Pfaiffer <high.res.mike at gmail.com 
> <mailto:high.res.mike at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>            The CLL is setting up a public access machine in the next
>     couple of
>     weeks. It is installed with Mint 8 (a multimedia Ubuntu fork). I would
>     like to set up a couple of init scripts. The first will delete the
>     public account home directory and copy a "clean" version in its place
>     each time the computer starts. The second will shut down the computer
>     after half an hour of use.
> 
>            I haven't touched on cron since university 20 years ago and
>     I've never
>     written an init script. Having written a few shell scripts I know the
>     copy script should be very simple. I'm not sure how to set up the timer
>     script or make them run on start up. Would anybody be able to fire off
>     some quick directions?
> 
>            This may be a "foot in the door" situation.
> 
>                                    Later
>                                    Mike
>     _______________________________________________
>     Roundtable mailing list
>     Roundtable at muug.mb.ca <mailto:Roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
>     http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com <mailto:sean at ertw.com>>    http://ertw.com/


From sean at tinfoilhat.ca  Mon Dec  7 12:09:40 2009
From: sean at tinfoilhat.ca (Sean Cody)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:09:40 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <4B1D4331.1030002@gmail.com>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>
	<cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B1D4331.1030002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <72D8F0E6-FFD5-4D9C-805E-706A30358A88@tinfoilhat.ca>

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to setup a VM to play with... then you don't have to wait until Friday to test.

On 2009-12-07, at 12:02 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> 
> 	Thanks for the help. I'll be able to access the machine on Friday. 
> We'll see what happens then.
> 

-- 
Sean


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From robert at cluenet.org  Mon Dec  7 12:12:06 2009
From: robert at cluenet.org (Robert Keizer)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 12:12:06 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B1D4576.5040909@cluenet.org>

Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> 	The CLL is setting up a public access machine in the next couple of 
> weeks. It is installed with Mint 8 (a multimedia Ubuntu fork). I would 
> like to set up a couple of init scripts. The first will delete the 
> public account home directory and copy a "clean" version in its place 
> each time the computer starts. The second will shut down the computer 
> after half an hour of use.
>
> 	I haven't touched on cron since university 20 years ago and I've never 
> written an init script. Having written a few shell scripts I know the 
> copy script should be very simple. I'm not sure how to set up the timer 
> script or make them run on start up. Would anybody be able to fire off 
> some quick directions?
>
> 	This may be a "foot in the door" situation.
>
> 				Later
> 				Mike
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>   


A simple addition to root's crontab should allow you to reboot the 
machine every 30 minutes without any problem. You could also give the 
user a warning message if you wanted to with notify-send .. see 
http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/tech-tip-get-notifications-your-scripts-notify-send 
for reference.. or the september issue of LJ :)

All the best,
Robert Keizer

From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 12:40:51 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 12:40:51 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <72D8F0E6-FFD5-4D9C-805E-706A30358A88@tinfoilhat.ca>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>	<cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>	<4B1D4331.1030002@gmail.com>
	<72D8F0E6-FFD5-4D9C-805E-706A30358A88@tinfoilhat.ca>
Message-ID: <4B1D4C33.1080202@gmail.com>

Sean Cody wrote:
> Sounds like a perfect opportunity to setup a VM to play with... then you 
> don't have to wait until Friday to test.

	Good idea. I can get on it in a couple hours instead of a few days.

	BTW, looks like the 'echo "reboot" | at now + 30 minutes' didn't work 
out too well from the command line. I think at minimum it would need a 
sudo command.

	I'll need to think about your previous reply some more. I think the 
solution is close.

				Later
				Mike


> On 2009-12-07, at 12:02 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the help. I'll be able to access the machine on Friday.
>> We'll see what happens then.
>>
> 
> -- 
> Sean
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable


From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 12:46:51 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 12:46:51 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <4B1D4576.5040909@cluenet.org>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com> <4B1D4576.5040909@cluenet.org>
Message-ID: <4B1D4D9B.7020905@gmail.com>

Robert Keizer wrote:
> Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>>     The CLL is setting up a public access machine in the next couple 
>> of weeks. It is installed with Mint 8 (a multimedia Ubuntu fork). I 
>> would like to set up a couple of init scripts. The first will delete 
>> the public account home directory and copy a "clean" version in its 
>> place each time the computer starts. The second will shut down the 
>> computer after half an hour of use.
>>
>>     I haven't touched on cron since university 20 years ago and I've 
>> never written an init script. Having written a few shell scripts I 
>> know the copy script should be very simple. I'm not sure how to set up 
>> the timer script or make them run on start up. Would anybody be able 
>> to fire off some quick directions?
>>
>>     This may be a "foot in the door" situation.
>>
>>                 Later
>>                 Mike
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>   
> 
> 
> A simple addition to root's crontab should allow you to reboot the 
> machine every 30 minutes without any problem. You could also give the 
> user a warning message if you wanted to with notify-send .. see 
> http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/tech-tip-get-notifications-your-scripts-notify-send 
> for reference.. or the september issue of LJ :)

	I'll check out the link this afternoon. I like the idea of 
notification. Particularly if it's done through a pop-up dialogue box.

	As to rebooting every 30 minutes, I was thinking about that earlier. I 
think it would be best to halt after 30 minutes of usage rather than 
every 30 minutes. Suppose someone starts up at say 1:29. They would only 
have one minute before shut down. If it was after 30 minutes of use they 
would have until 1:59.

> All the best,
> Robert Keizer

				Later
				Mike


From grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca  Mon Dec  7 12:46:50 2009
From: grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca (Gilles Detillieux)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 12:46:50 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <4B1D4C33.1080202@gmail.com>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>	<cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>	<4B1D4331.1030002@gmail.com>	<72D8F0E6-FFD5-4D9C-805E-706A30358A88@tinfoilhat.ca>
	<4B1D4C33.1080202@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B1D4D9A.9030608@scrc.umanitoba.ca>

On 07/12/2009 12:40 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> Sean Cody wrote:
>> Sounds like a perfect opportunity to setup a VM to play with... then you 
>> don't have to wait until Friday to test.
> 
> 	Good idea. I can get on it in a couple hours instead of a few days.
> 
> 	BTW, looks like the 'echo "reboot" | at now + 30 minutes' didn't work 
> out too well from the command line. I think at minimum it would need a 
> sudo command.

If you're going to enable specific commands in /etc/sudoers, I'd 
recommend you enable access to the reboot command, rather than access to 
the at or crontab commands.  The latter two would open up all sorts of 
possibilities for exploitation, whereas the former shouldn't make the 
machine more vulnerable to anything other than a premature reboot.

-- 
Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)

From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 13:07:21 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 13:07:21 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <4B1D4D9A.9030608@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>	<cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>	<4B1D4331.1030002@gmail.com>	<72D8F0E6-FFD5-4D9C-805E-706A30358A88@tinfoilhat.ca>
	<4B1D4C33.1080202@gmail.com> <4B1D4D9A.9030608@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <4B1D5269.3090706@gmail.com>

Gilles Detillieux wrote:
> On 07/12/2009 12:40 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>> Sean Cody wrote:
>>> Sounds like a perfect opportunity to setup a VM to play with... then 
>>> you don't have to wait until Friday to test.
>>
>>     Good idea. I can get on it in a couple hours instead of a few days.
>>
>>     BTW, looks like the 'echo "reboot" | at now + 30 minutes' didn't 
>> work out too well from the command line. I think at minimum it would 
>> need a sudo command.
> 
> If you're going to enable specific commands in /etc/sudoers, I'd 
> recommend you enable access to the reboot command, rather than access to 
> the at or crontab commands.  The latter two would open up all sorts of 
> possibilities for exploitation, whereas the former shouldn't make the 
> machine more vulnerable to anything other than a premature reboot.
> 
	First I've confirmed the reboot/halt command needs to be performed as 
root under Mint. Makes sense.

	When it comes to enabling access to the reboot/halt command, this would 
be done through file permissions?

				Later
				Mike


From robert at cluenet.org  Mon Dec  7 14:26:29 2009
From: robert at cluenet.org (Robert Keizer)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:26:29 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <4B1D5269.3090706@gmail.com>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>	<cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>	<4B1D4331.1030002@gmail.com>	<72D8F0E6-FFD5-4D9C-805E-706A30358A88@tinfoilhat.ca>	<4B1D4C33.1080202@gmail.com>
	<4B1D4D9A.9030608@scrc.umanitoba.ca> <4B1D5269.3090706@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B1D64F5.4000905@cluenet.org>

Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> 	First I've confirmed the reboot/halt command needs to be performed as 
> root under Mint. Makes sense.
>
> 	When it comes to enabling access to the reboot/halt command, this would 
> be done through file permissions?
>   


It could.. but its a bad idea. A better solution would be to allow the 
user access to it via sudo. Try out 'visudo' and the man page of 'sudoers'.

When sudo is setup correctly, certain users can execute commands as 
root, so no changes to filesystem permissions are required. Just prefix 
the command with sudo .. ie "sudo shutdown -rn now" or "sudo reboot".

All the best,
Robert

From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 14:58:27 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:58:27 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <4B1D64F5.4000905@cluenet.org>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>	<cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>	<4B1D4331.1030002@gmail.com>	<72D8F0E6-FFD5-4D9C-805E-706A30358A88@tinfoilhat.ca>	<4B1D4C33.1080202@gmail.com>
	<4B1D4D9A.9030608@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
	<4B1D5269.3090706@gmail.com> <4B1D64F5.4000905@cluenet.org>
Message-ID: <4B1D6C73.5030109@gmail.com>

Robert Keizer wrote:
> Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>>     First I've confirmed the reboot/halt command needs to be performed 
>> as root under Mint. Makes sense.
>>
>>     When it comes to enabling access to the reboot/halt command, this 
>> would be done through file permissions?
>>   
> 
> 
> It could.. but its a bad idea. A better solution would be to allow the 
> user access to it via sudo. Try out 'visudo' and the man page of 'sudoers'.
> 
> When sudo is setup correctly, certain users can execute commands as 
> root, so no changes to filesystem permissions are required. Just prefix 
> the command with sudo .. ie "sudo shutdown -rn now" or "sudo reboot".

	Actually I'd like it to be done at the system init level. Hope I'm 
using the correct terminology. Through something which is set up at 
startup. This way it is out of control of the user. Last week we had 
someone who was on the single machine all day and wouldn't budge. If he 
could figure out how to disable the shutdown idea we're discussing he 
would. This way if the machine shuts down and there is someone waiting 
to get on they can say he had his half hour and boot him off. If he's 
the only person there then he can restart since all he does is facebook 
and the like.

	What we can do is create a user account without privileges or sudo 
access so they can't mess up the machine. We can then use a different 
account for updates etc..

	BTW, I've just set up Virtual Box and downloaded a couple of kiosk 
distros. I think the first was Webkiosk. It seemed to work OK. They want 
$200US to configure it for us. Maybe we can try it in the other machine 
for a while on Friday and see if we can get by without any changes. The 
other one is Pynx|Kiosk. I'll look at that one after I get back in a 
couple of hours. Any suggestions for others to look at? I'll be at 
tomorrows meeting and ask again there.

> All the best,
> Robert

				Later
				Mike


From montanaq at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 15:16:08 2009
From: montanaq at gmail.com (Montana Quiring)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:16:08 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <4B1D6C73.5030109@gmail.com>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>
	<cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B1D4331.1030002@gmail.com>
	<72D8F0E6-FFD5-4D9C-805E-706A30358A88@tinfoilhat.ca>
	<4B1D4C33.1080202@gmail.com> <4B1D4D9A.9030608@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
	<4B1D5269.3090706@gmail.com> <4B1D64F5.4000905@cluenet.org>
	<4B1D6C73.5030109@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bdad73b60912071316ja3b5c2eq1202e1b4c49aeab4@mail.gmail.com>

FYI: there's this distro too: http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=05761

-Montana
Blog and Aggregation Site:
http://montanaquiring.info
iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps


On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Mike Pfaiffer <high.res.mike at gmail.com>wrote:

> Robert Keizer wrote:
> > Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> >>     First I've confirmed the reboot/halt command needs to be performed
> >> as root under Mint. Makes sense.
> >>
> >>     When it comes to enabling access to the reboot/halt command, this
> >> would be done through file permissions?
> >>
> >
> >
> > It could.. but its a bad idea. A better solution would be to allow the
> > user access to it via sudo. Try out 'visudo' and the man page of
> 'sudoers'.
> >
> > When sudo is setup correctly, certain users can execute commands as
> > root, so no changes to filesystem permissions are required. Just prefix
> > the command with sudo .. ie "sudo shutdown -rn now" or "sudo reboot".
>
>         Actually I'd like it to be done at the system init level. Hope I'm
> using the correct terminology. Through something which is set up at
> startup. This way it is out of control of the user. Last week we had
> someone who was on the single machine all day and wouldn't budge. If he
> could figure out how to disable the shutdown idea we're discussing he
> would. This way if the machine shuts down and there is someone waiting
> to get on they can say he had his half hour and boot him off. If he's
> the only person there then he can restart since all he does is facebook
> and the like.
>
>        What we can do is create a user account without privileges or sudo
> access so they can't mess up the machine. We can then use a different
> account for updates etc..
>
>        BTW, I've just set up Virtual Box and downloaded a couple of kiosk
> distros. I think the first was Webkiosk. It seemed to work OK. They want
> $200US to configure it for us. Maybe we can try it in the other machine
> for a while on Friday and see if we can get by without any changes. The
> other one is Pynx|Kiosk. I'll look at that one after I get back in a
> couple of hours. Any suggestions for others to look at? I'll be at
> tomorrows meeting and ask again there.
>
> > All the best,
> > Robert
>
>                                Later
>                                 Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 16:24:28 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:24:28 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <bdad73b60912071316ja3b5c2eq1202e1b4c49aeab4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com>	
	<cc43a8f80912070947t441e33aard5040fb178a3ade4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4B1D4331.1030002@gmail.com>	
	<72D8F0E6-FFD5-4D9C-805E-706A30358A88@tinfoilhat.ca>	
	<4B1D4C33.1080202@gmail.com> <4B1D4D9A.9030608@scrc.umanitoba.ca>	
	<4B1D5269.3090706@gmail.com> <4B1D64F5.4000905@cluenet.org>	
	<4B1D6C73.5030109@gmail.com>
	<bdad73b60912071316ja3b5c2eq1202e1b4c49aeab4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B1D809C.9030505@gmail.com>

Montana Quiring wrote:
> FYI: there's this distro too: http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=05761

	Yeah. That's the one I was thinking of earlier. Like I said it's pretty 
good. It runs off of a live CD. We may try it on the other machine (M$) 
on Friday and see what sort of reception we get. If it does what we 
want, we can yank out the hard drives and maybe add more RAM.

	Now I'm back I can try the other one.


> -Montana
> Blog and Aggregation Site:
> http://montanaquiring.info
> iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
> http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
> 
> 

				Later
				Mike



> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Mike Pfaiffer <high.res.mike at gmail.com 
> <mailto:high.res.mike at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Robert Keizer wrote:
>      > Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>      >>     First I've confirmed the reboot/halt command needs to be
>     performed
>      >> as root under Mint. Makes sense.
>      >>
>      >>     When it comes to enabling access to the reboot/halt command,
>     this
>      >> would be done through file permissions?
>      >>
>      >
>      >
>      > It could.. but its a bad idea. A better solution would be to
>     allow the
>      > user access to it via sudo. Try out 'visudo' and the man page of
>     'sudoers'.
>      >
>      > When sudo is setup correctly, certain users can execute commands as
>      > root, so no changes to filesystem permissions are required. Just
>     prefix
>      > the command with sudo .. ie "sudo shutdown -rn now" or "sudo reboot".
> 
>            Actually I'd like it to be done at the system init level.
>     Hope I'm
>     using the correct terminology. Through something which is set up at
>     startup. This way it is out of control of the user. Last week we had
>     someone who was on the single machine all day and wouldn't budge. If he
>     could figure out how to disable the shutdown idea we're discussing he
>     would. This way if the machine shuts down and there is someone waiting
>     to get on they can say he had his half hour and boot him off. If he's
>     the only person there then he can restart since all he does is facebook
>     and the like.
> 
>            What we can do is create a user account without privileges or
>     sudo
>     access so they can't mess up the machine. We can then use a different
>     account for updates etc..
> 
>            BTW, I've just set up Virtual Box and downloaded a couple of
>     kiosk
>     distros. I think the first was Webkiosk. It seemed to work OK. They want
>     $200US to configure it for us. Maybe we can try it in the other machine
>     for a while on Friday and see if we can get by without any changes. The
>     other one is Pynx|Kiosk. I'll look at that one after I get back in a
>     couple of hours. Any suggestions for others to look at? I'll be at
>     tomorrows meeting and ask again there.
> 
>      > All the best,
>      > Robert
> 
>                                    Later
>                                    Mike
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Roundtable mailing list
>     Roundtable at muug.mb.ca <mailto:Roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
>     http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> 
> 


From GJDitchfield at acm.org  Mon Dec  7 20:45:40 2009
From: GJDitchfield at acm.org (Glen Ditchfield)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:45:40 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <4B1D4D9B.7020905@gmail.com>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com> <4B1D4576.5040909@cluenet.org>
	<4B1D4D9B.7020905@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200912072045.40525.GJDitchfield@acm.org>

On December 7, 2009 12:46:51 pm Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> As to rebooting every 30 minutes, I was thinking about that earlier. I 
> think it would be best to halt after 30 minutes of usage rather than 
> every 30 minutes.

Does this system have a login dialog?  Perhaps you could put a command in the 
XDM or KDM Xstartup file to kill the session after 30 minutes.  "shutdown r 
+30" would do, but killing all of the guest user ID's processes ought to be 
enough.

From athompso at athompso.net  Mon Dec  7 21:06:19 2009
From: athompso at athompso.net (Adam Thompson)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 03:06:19 +0000
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
Message-ID: <1942314139-1260241567-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2099539165-@bda467.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Actually... That's an excellent suggestion.
Except: the last command in a .xinitrc or .xsession file must stay runningfor the duration of the X session.  Normally, that command is "kdeinit" or "gnome-session", or historically, the window manager executable i.e. "mwm" or "twm" or whatever.

If you start GNOME, say, by including "gnome-session &" as the second-last line, the *last* line can then be "sleep 1800".  When it exits, so does the X session.

(It might be nice to provide a countdown timer for the user.)

-Adam


From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 21:55:21 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:55:21 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <200912072045.40525.GJDitchfield@acm.org>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com> <4B1D4576.5040909@cluenet.org>
	<4B1D4D9B.7020905@gmail.com>
	<200912072045.40525.GJDitchfield@acm.org>
Message-ID: <4B1DCE29.8000200@gmail.com>

Glen Ditchfield wrote:
> On December 7, 2009 12:46:51 pm Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>> As to rebooting every 30 minutes, I was thinking about that earlier. I 
>> think it would be best to halt after 30 minutes of usage rather than 
>> every 30 minutes.
> 
> Does this system have a login dialog?  Perhaps you could put a command in the 
> XDM or KDM Xstartup file to kill the session after 30 minutes.  "shutdown r 
> +30" would do, but killing all of the guest user ID's processes ought to be 
> enough.

	I was thinking about a login dialogue earlier. There are both plus and 
minuses to it. The plus is we can directly go to the privileged
account to do the updates. The minus is the users (some of which are not 
too bright) might get confused.

	The issue of the halt versus the logout is one which is important. I've 
been thinking about it all evening. If it's a logout then it is 
potentially less harmful to the hardware. If it's a halt the benefits 
are the non-privileged account gets recreated on start-up and the 
message to the user is "get out of the chair and let someone else have a 
chance". Before the machine this one is replacing was stolen, we had up 
to five people waiting for two spots. A halt may help move things along 
a little faster. Particularly if someone is watching...

	It looks like Adam has something to say as a reply to this message. 
I'll check it out.

				Later
				Mike


From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Dec  7 22:38:30 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:38:30 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <1942314139-1260241567-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2099539165-@bda467.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1942314139-1260241567-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2099539165-@bda467.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4B1DD846.3050108@gmail.com>

Adam Thompson wrote:
> Actually... That's an excellent suggestion. Except: the last command
> in a .xinitrc or .xsession file must stay runningfor the duration of
> the X session.  Normally, that command is "kdeinit" or
> "gnome-session", or historically, the window manager executable i.e.
> "mwm" or "twm" or whatever.

	I remember having seen this when I wanted to run KDE in FreeBSD.

> If you start GNOME, say, by including "gnome-session &" as the
> second-last line, the *last* line can then be "sleep 1800".  When it
> exits, so does the X session.

	Let's see if I understand how this works (I'm getting better at 
this)... The window manager starts in the background. This is OK because 
it's an interactive program and will grab the I/O anyway. The last line 
is executed in the foreground and does nothing for 1800 seconds (30 
minutes) then stops. At that point there is nothing left in the file so 
the session quits. Being an Ubuntu fork it will then pop back into mode 
5 and present the login screen. Once the user types the password and 
starts a new session the whole process repeats. For the most part this 
is acceptable. There are a couple of problems.

	It appears they've decided to do away with those files (at least I 
can't find them in the "~" directory). Next, if the user knew where to 
look they could edit the file and change it back to normal. Then all 
they'd have to do is logout and login again when nobody was looking. 
This would then stay in effect until the next startup when the users 
home directory is removed and recreated. Unless it is possible to change 
the ownership of the file to a different account such as root, then 
prevent editing by the user...

> (It might be nice to provide a countdown timer for the user.)

	I know how to create a "popup" dialogue using Zenity but I'm not sure 
how to do a timer.

> -Adam
> 

				Later
				Mike


From athompso at athompso.net  Mon Dec  7 22:50:48 2009
From: athompso at athompso.net (Adam Thompson)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 04:50:48 +0000
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
Message-ID: <917519959-1260247838-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-585815694-@bda467.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Mike, you already guessed how to make it impervious to user modification, make it owned by root.  That's not 100% foolproof either, but close.
The files can just be created, they're never there by default (and on the two distros in particular that *did* provide them default, they still *should* not have been there).

Bigger problem I realized with my own solution: the user *can't* logout before 30 min are up!  Or, more precisely the sleep(1) will keep running after the X session has apparently ended - they'll probably get the blank grey X background with no clients, until the 30min is up.

No, there's an elegant solution to this problem I just don't know what it is yet.
-Adam


From peter at pogma.com  Tue Dec  8 00:30:24 2009
From: peter at pogma.com (Peter O'Gorman)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:30:24 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <917519959-1260247838-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-585815694-@bda467.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <917519959-1260247838-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-585815694-@bda467.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4B1DF280.9000908@pogma.com>

On 12/07/2009 10:50 PM, Adam Thompson wrote:

> No, there's an elegant solution to this problem I just don't know what it is yet.

Seems like, instead of execing gnome-session in .xinitrc, it could exec 
something else, perhaps a python script, that spins off a thread which 
forks and execs gnome-session, and uses another thread to track the 
time, killing the child thread if necessary after 30 minutes and 
exiting. Said script could also use libnotify to popup warnings if 
necessary.

Peter
-- 
Peter O'Gorman
http://pogma.com

From athompso at athompso.net  Mon Dec  7 23:35:41 2009
From: athompso at athompso.net (Adam Thompson)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 23:35:41 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <917519959-1260247838-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-585815694-@bda467.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <917519959-1260247838-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-585815694-@bda467.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <8ce1230f0912072135o3ecccef7i3b93fbc7b6806bc@mail.gmail.com>

>
> No, there's an elegant solution to this problem I just don't know what it
> is yet.
> -Adam


How about [up to] 45 Neoware thin-client machines you could run off an
Ubuntu server?  Would that be another way to solve your problem?  (Er... is
there any way I could wrangle a tax receipt out of this if I donate some
hardware?)

-Adam
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From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Tue Dec  8 10:16:49 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:16:49 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <8ce1230f0912072135o3ecccef7i3b93fbc7b6806bc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <917519959-1260247838-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-585815694-@bda467.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<8ce1230f0912072135o3ecccef7i3b93fbc7b6806bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B1E7BF1.9070401@gmail.com>

Adam Thompson wrote:
>     No, there's an elegant solution to this problem I just don't know
>     what it is yet.
>     -Adam

	If a shell script (or Peters idea of a Python script) can be executed 
at run time as root (no sudo required) a number of init scripts can be 
run at that time. The first one can run a notify after 25 minutes. The 
second could shut down after 30. A third could clean out the users home 
directory. Maybe in reverse order...

> How about [up to] 45 Neoware thin-client machines you could run off an 
> Ubuntu server? 

	Wishful thinking on the part of the guys in the lab. Myself included. 
Then we could also use a thin client server and get rid of XP (directly) 
from the class rooms.

> Would that be another way to solve your problem? 

	Maybe. I'll have to think about it. We'd have to increase the number of 
public access machines to a number greater than two though... That means 
another room and a supervisor.

> (Er... 
> is there any way I could wrangle a tax receipt out of this if I donate 
> some hardware?)

	I don't know. I'll have to ask. Best answer I can give you now is 
probably not but the possibility is there. Roy should be at tonights 
meeting. He is one of three people who would know. He talks with Alvin 
(the guy in charge) every couple of days. The CLL may run the public 
access program but they aren't the ones in charge of it. One layer on 
top of another and all that...

> -Adam
> 

				Later
				Mike

From montanaq at gmail.com  Tue Dec  8 10:37:05 2009
From: montanaq at gmail.com (Montana Quiring)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:37:05 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <200912072045.40525.GJDitchfield@acm.org>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com> <4B1D4576.5040909@cluenet.org>
	<4B1D4D9B.7020905@gmail.com> <200912072045.40525.GJDitchfield@acm.org>
Message-ID: <bdad73b60912080837p3d753a2macf584a2b3eaae9a@mail.gmail.com>

On a side note, you may want it to shutdown instead of rebooting.
It might be annoying for users to sit down infront of the computer and have
it reboot 5 minutes after starting to use it.
Just an idea.

-Montana
Blog and Aggregation Site:
http://montanaquiring.info
iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps


On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:45 PM, Glen Ditchfield <GJDitchfield at acm.org>wrote:

> On December 7, 2009 12:46:51 pm Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> > As to rebooting every 30 minutes, I was thinking about that earlier. I
> > think it would be best to halt after 30 minutes of usage rather than
> > every 30 minutes.
>
> Does this system have a login dialog?  Perhaps you could put a command in
> the
> XDM or KDM Xstartup file to kill the session after 30 minutes.  "shutdown r
> +30" would do, but killing all of the guest user ID's processes ought to be
> enough.
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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URL: http://www.muug.mb.ca/pipermail/roundtable/attachments/20091208/e0e3cf97/attachment.html 

From GJDitchfield at acm.org  Tue Dec  8 20:45:06 2009
From: GJDitchfield at acm.org (Glen Ditchfield)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 20:45:06 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine
In-Reply-To: <200912072045.40525.GJDitchfield@acm.org>
References: <4B1D3C5E.7030809@gmail.com> <4B1D4D9B.7020905@gmail.com>
	<200912072045.40525.GJDitchfield@acm.org>
Message-ID: <200912082045.06209.GJDitchfield@acm.org>

On December 7, 2009 08:45:40 pm Glen Ditchfield wrote:
> Does this system have a login dialog?  Perhaps you could put a command in
>  the XDM or KDM Xstartup file to kill the session after 30 minutes. 
>  "shutdown r +30" would do, but killing all of the guest user ID's
>  processes ought to be enough.

On December 7, 2009 09:06:19 pm Adam Thompson wrote:
> Actually... That's an excellent suggestion.
> Except: the last command in a .xinitrc or .xsession file must stay
>  runningfor the duration of the X session.  Normally, that command is
>  "kdeinit" or "gnome-session", or historically, the window manager
>  executable i.e. "mwm" or "twm" or whatever.

I wasn't thinking of changing .xinitrc.  I was thinking of 
/etc/kde4/kdm/Xstartup and /etc/X11/xdm/Xstartup, which "man xdm" says run as 
root before the user logs in.  If you wanted to run "shutdown" from there, you 
wouldn't have to play any sudo games.

The next trick is to cancel the shutdown if the user logs out, which might 
take some work in the Xreset file.  Xstartup could create a flag file somewhere, 
and launch a killer script.  Xreset would remove the flag file.  The killer 
would check for the flag before killing anything.  If your window manager lets  
users start parallel sessions, the scripts will have to be more clever.

You'll want to wipe the home directory, too, and put in a few minutes of sleep 
to encourage the current user to move on.   

From trevor at tecnopolis.ca  Tue Dec  8 23:09:56 2009
From: trevor at tecnopolis.ca (Trevor Cordes)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 23:09:56 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] power supplies
Message-ID: <20091209050956.GA17909@pog.tecnopolis.ca>

Someone was asking tonight about power supplies.  As I mentioned at the 
time, I think Enermax is the most reliable.  I've sold over 2000 Enermax 
PS's over 10 years and it is by far the one that dies the least often.  
I've done at most 2-3 repairs/replacements of Enermax PS's.  The rest are 
still running.  Everytime I give another brand a try, I regret it.

The only other brand I consider is if I need to "cheap out" I'll use an 
Antec case with a builtin Antec PS.  They seem pretty good too and are 
more affordable (when bought in the case).

In either case, I recommend the APFC models, as they save electricity 
(lower TCO) and are generally built better.

My favorite model for Enermax is the Liberty series and I use the 400 and 
500W's successfully in nearly all computers.  A good 500W will give you 
more and cleaner power than a cheapo 600W.

My company sells them if you have trouble getting them elsewhere or want 
to buy local.  Email me for details/pricing.  I can bring orders to the 
meetings.

Good luck!

From trevor at tecnopolis.ca  Tue Dec  8 23:31:16 2009
From: trevor at tecnopolis.ca (Trevor Cordes)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 23:31:16 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Parts?
In-Reply-To: <6756caf10911021843w679d3ec0gbb63b16c4daf08f6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6756caf10911021843w679d3ec0gbb63b16c4daf08f6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091208233116.1ea2e340@pog.tecnopolis.ca>

On 2009-11-02 Kevin McGregor wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> I'm going to mod my WRT54GL to use power over Ethernet, and I need
> some good quality wire. I was going to use some from the wiring
> harness of an old power supply (e.g. AT, ATX), but I don't have any
> around I can cannibalize. Does anyone else have something I can use?
> Or a suggestion?

Little late, but I can provide some old PS wires/harness for free.

For putting PoE on non-PoE devices, I use cheap injectors and/or
splitters that most companies (Linksys, DLink, USR, etc) make.  I've
had great success.  Just be sure to match up the voltage and amps!  I
can provide SKUs and/or pricing for you if you're interested.  I do a
lot of IP surveillance cams with these injectors.

From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Wed Dec  9 16:17:32 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:17:32 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Public access machine results
Message-ID: <4B2021FC.3080109@gmail.com>

	I have a VM up for testing. Looks like I'm working in reverse order 
here... Going from what I thought was hardest to what I thought was easiest.

	So far I've managed to get the shut down routine working reasonably 
well. I have the command stored in /etc/rc.local. I did not know about 
this... As a file owned by root the user needs to be in the a sudoers 
list in order to edit it. It looks like the timer begins as soon as the 
computer enters mode 5. Thanks go to Steve for pointing out I can cancel 
the shutdown command with a "-c" option. Again, this only works if the 
account is in the sudoers list. The cool thing is by using the "at" 
command the shutdown program isn't running through the whole session. I 
like the halt option because we don't have to be there for it to work.

	I can get notification of sorts if there is a terminal/shell open. It 
isn't likely the people using the machine will use the terminal so I'm 
going to look at my samples for zenity scripts and try one of those to 
generate a pop-up. Since zenity is still part of Gnome this should take 
about 10 minutes if I can find where I left my samples. ;-)

	After that I'll follow through with Sean W.s suggestion about tar-ing 
the user directory, wiping it out, then doing a restore.

	Things should go really well. I'll be setting it up this Friday (I have 
an XP repair to do first - the user took off the AV software and 
replaced it with a trojan claiming to be AV software). If all goes well 
it should be running by the end of the day.

	Thanks everybody for your help. If the people in charge see it working 
better than the XP machine sitting next to it, we will probably have TWO 
Linux machines as public access machines. ;-)

				Later
				Mike

From gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca  Thu Dec 10 10:38:54 2009
From: gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca (Gilbert E. Detillieux)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:38:54 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Fwd: USENIX WebApps '10 Submissions Deadline Approaching
Message-ID: <4B21241E.7000903@cs.umanitoba.ca>

FYI...

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [Board] USENIX WebApps '10 Submissions Deadline Approaching
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 16:07:35 -0800
From: Lionel Garth Jones <lgj at usenix.org>
To: info at muug.mb.ca, gedetil at muug.mb.ca

I'm writing to remind you that the submission deadline for the USENIX
Conference on Web Application Development (WebApps '10) is approaching.
Please submit your paper titles and abstracts by January 4, 2010, and
your complete papers by January 11, 2010.

The Call for Papers, with submission guidelines, can be found at
http://www.usenix.org/webapps10/cfpb/

WebApps '10 is a new technical conference designed to bring together
experts in all aspects of developing and deploying Web applications.

Suggested topics related to Web application development include but are
not limited to:

* Computing substrates and deployment technologies ("cloud computing")
* Frameworks for developing Web applications
* Client-side toolkits, libraries, and plug-ins
* Storage systems
* Security issues for Web applications
* Management techniques for large-scale Web applications
* Languages for Web applications
* Scalability issues and techniques
* Techniques for creating highly interactive Web applications
* Software as a service
* Applications that illustrate interesting new features or
implementation techniques
* Performance measurements of Web applications
* Real-time data delivery over the Web
* Web services

WebApps '10 will take place June 23?25, 2010, in Boston, MA.

I look forward to receiving your submissions!

Sincerely,

John Ousterhout, Stanford University
WebApps '10 Program Chair
webapps10chair at usenix.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Call for Papers:
USENIX Conference on Web Application Development (WebApps '10)
June 20?25, 2010
Boston, MA
http://www.usenix.org/webapps10/cfpb
Paper abstracts and titles deadline: January 4, 2010
Complete papers submission deadline: January 11, 2010
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Thu Dec 10 18:39:13 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:39:13 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Interesting effect
Message-ID: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com>

	It seems zenity won't display if a different user is logged in. For 
example running it as a single line from /etc/rc.local won't bring up a 
popup. It may not have worked well with at either. Does anyone have a 
suggestion which works well with at and can be called from 
/etc/rc.local? I have everything else working for the public access box. 
Just not the notification. I figure we can leave the notification 
routing for a week and just post a note.

				Later
				Mike


From peter at pogma.com  Thu Dec 10 18:53:44 2009
From: peter at pogma.com (Peter O'Gorman)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:53:44 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Interesting effect
In-Reply-To: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>

On 12/10/2009 06:39 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> 	It seems zenity won't display if a different user is logged in. For
> example running it as a single line from /etc/rc.local won't bring up a
> popup. It may not have worked well with at either. Does anyone have a
> suggestion which works well with at and can be called from
> /etc/rc.local? I have everything else working for the public access box.
> Just not the notification. I figure we can leave the notification
> routing for a week and just post a note.

Is it not working because DISPLAY is unset, or some other reason?

Try adding --display=:0.0 to the zenity arguments.

Peter
-- 
Peter O'Gorman
http://pogma.com

From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Thu Dec 10 20:43:15 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:43:15 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Interesting effect - Looks like it's ready to go folks
In-Reply-To: <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com> <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>
Message-ID: <4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>

Peter O'Gorman wrote:
> On 12/10/2009 06:39 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>>     It seems zenity won't display if a different user is logged in. For
>> example running it as a single line from /etc/rc.local won't bring up a
>> popup. It may not have worked well with at either. Does anyone have a
>> suggestion which works well with at and can be called from
>> /etc/rc.local? I have everything else working for the public access box.
>> Just not the notification. I figure we can leave the notification
>> routing for a week and just post a note.
> 
> Is it not working because DISPLAY is unset, or some other reason?
> 
> Try adding --display=:0.0 to the zenity arguments.

	That did the trick. Thank you. The cool thing is because rc.local is 
executed as soon as it goes into mode 5 the message and shut down occur 
regardless. Even if nobody logsin or if they logout and login again. The 
only way around it is to reboot. That is so obvious other people will 
notice. Plus it does pretty much the same thing we wanted anyway.

	I'm sure this will be of no interest to the "*NIX heavyweights" of the 
group. For everybody else here is the code I plan to add to the machine...

*****
rm -rf /home/guest
cp /root/guest.tar /home
cd /home
tar -xvf guest.tar
rm guest.tar
cd -
echo 'zenity --info --display=:0.0 --text="This computer will 
automatically turn off in five minutes." --width=150' | at now +25 minutes
echo 'shutdown -h now' | at now +30 minutes
*****

	This presumes a pre-existing guest account which has had its home 
directory tarred to guest.tar. Then the tar file is stored in the 
(inaccessible to unprivileged users) /root directory.

	Incidentally the zenity line is all one line. the line before uses the 
dash/minus sign to return to the previous directory.

	I may also have to tweak the width a little.

> Peter

	Thanks again everybody.

				Later
				Mike


From grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca  Fri Dec 11 11:13:30 2009
From: grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca (Gilles Detillieux)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 11:13:30 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Interesting effect - Looks like it's ready to go folks
In-Reply-To: <4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com> <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>
	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B227DBA.8080009@scrc.umanitoba.ca>

On 12/10/2009 08:43 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> 	I'm sure this will be of no interest to the "*NIX heavyweights" of the 
> group. For everybody else here is the code I plan to add to the machine...
> 
> *****
> rm -rf /home/guest
> cp /root/guest.tar /home
> cd /home
> tar -xvf guest.tar
> rm guest.tar
> cd -
> echo 'zenity --info --display=:0.0 --text="This computer will 
> automatically turn off in five minutes." --width=150' | at now +25 minutes
> echo 'shutdown -h now' | at now +30 minutes
> *****

You could replace lines 2-6 in that script with:

tar xf /root/guest.tar -C /home

No need to do the cd's and cp/rm, as tar can do the cd and the cp is 
unnecessary.  You don't really need the v option to tar if this is 
running from rc.local.  You could also save a little space by using the 
z argument to tar (for both the create and extract phases) and storing 
the home directory copy in guest.tgz.

-- 
Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)

From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Fri Dec 11 18:59:53 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:59:53 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Interesting effect - Looks like it's ready to go folks
In-Reply-To: <4B227DBA.8080009@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com>
	<4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
	<4B227DBA.8080009@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <4B22EB09.7000006@gmail.com>

Gilles Detillieux wrote:
> On 12/10/2009 08:43 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>> 	I'm sure this will be of no interest to the "*NIX heavyweights" of the 
>> group. For everybody else here is the code I plan to add to the machine...
>>
>> *****
>> rm -rf /home/guest
>> cp /root/guest.tar /home
>> cd /home
>> tar -xvf guest.tar
>> rm guest.tar
>> cd -
>> echo 'zenity --info --display=:0.0 --text="This computer will 
>> automatically turn off in five minutes." --width=150' | at now +25 minutes
>> echo 'shutdown -h now' | at now +30 minutes
>> *****
> 
> You could replace lines 2-6 in that script with:
> 
> tar xf /root/guest.tar -C /home
> 
> No need to do the cd's and cp/rm, as tar can do the cd and the cp is 
> unnecessary.  You don't really need the v option to tar if this is 
> running from rc.local.  You could also save a little space by using the 
> z argument to tar (for both the create and extract phases) and storing 
> the home directory copy in guest.tgz.
> 

	I followed Glens advice from last night. I could cut two lines down to 
one if I used the code you provided.

	There is plenty of hard drive space on the machine. It only has two 
accounts and the one which will be used most often gets wiped at 
startup. I'll probably have to redo some of the options and re-tar the 
directory. It seems as though some of the users can't find the gnome 
start menu. I'll probably have to put a link to Firefox on the desktop 
as well. <sigh>

	The guy who spent all day on the machine last week left after a couple 
of hours today. He doesn't want to use it if there is a second machine 
around. ;-)

				Later
				Mike



From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Wed Dec 16 21:10:00 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:10:00 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com> <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>
	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>

	Since OS X sort of qualifies as *NIX here goes...

	When upgrading an Intel Mac from 10.4 to 10.6 I was able to skip 10.5 by using the $40 (after tax) upgrade package instead of the $200 complete package Apple wants 10.4 users to buy. It's been running for three or four days now with no serious problems. I just had to manually download newer versions of a couple of third party programs.

	They've finally implemented something like the pager. They call it Open Spaces. By default it gives the user four virtual screens.

				Later
				Mike




From peter at pogma.com  Wed Dec 16 21:15:40 2009
From: peter at pogma.com (Peter O'Gorman)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:15:40 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com>
	<4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B29A25C.6090905@pogma.com>

On 12/16/2009 09:10 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:

> 	They've finally implemented something like the pager. They call it Open Spaces. By default it gives the user four virtual screens.
>

Spaces was in 10.5 too :)

Peter
-- 
Peter O'Gorman
http://pogma.com

From ummar143 at shaw.ca  Wed Dec 16 22:02:45 2009
From: ummar143 at shaw.ca (Dan Martin)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:02:45 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com> <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>
	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>

I was at the Apple store yesterday, asking about Snow Leopard.  I had  
understood earlier that it was an 'upgrade' from Leopard - but the guy  
in the store says it's a complete OS and has no previous requirements  
(except the firmware, I assume).

So there is also one being sold for $200?

-Dan

On 16-Dec-09, at 9:10 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:

> 	Since OS X sort of qualifies as *NIX here goes...
>
> 	When upgrading an Intel Mac from 10.4 to 10.6 I was able to skip  
> 10.5 by using the $40 (after tax) upgrade package instead of the  
> $200 complete package Apple wants 10.4 users to buy. It's been  
> running for three or four days now with no serious problems. I just  
> had to manually download newer versions of a couple of third party  
> programs.
>
> 	They've finally implemented something like the pager. They call it  
> Open Spaces. By default it gives the user four virtual screens.
>
> 				Later
> 				Mike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable

Dan Martin
GP Hospital Practitioner
Computer Scientist
ummar143 at shaw.ca
(204) 831-1746
answering machine always on


From peter at pogma.com  Wed Dec 16 22:20:55 2009
From: peter at pogma.com (Peter O'Gorman)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:20:55 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com>
	<4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
	<B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <4B29B1A7.6050404@pogma.com>

On 12/16/2009 10:02 PM, Dan Martin wrote:
> I was at the Apple store yesterday, asking about Snow Leopard.  I had
> understood earlier that it was an 'upgrade' from Leopard - but the guy
> in the store says it's a complete OS and has no previous requirements
> (except the firmware, I assume).
>
> So there is also one being sold for $200?

http://store.apple.com/ca/product/MC209Z/A

It does also include iLife and iWork.

Peter
-- 
Peter O'Gorman
http://pogma.com

From athompso at athompso.net  Wed Dec 16 22:09:54 2009
From: athompso at athompso.net (Adam Thompson)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:09:54 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com> <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>	
	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAAGPkeSsenyVCoA05pjqDfQ0BAAAAAA==@athompso.net>

> Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
> 	Since OS X sort of qualifies as *NIX here goes...

Not sort of: Mac OS X *is* UNIX.

In fact, Mac OS X has a significantly better historical claim to that name
than any version of Linux that has ever existed.  For those who aren't
aware, Mac OS X consists of two pieces: the GUI, which is entirely
proprietary to Apple, and the underlying UNIX operating system, called
Darwin.

Darwin is the direct descendant of OpenStep (jointly developed by NeXT and
Sun), which is in turn the descendant of NextStep (developed by NeXT) which
was the combination of a CMU Mach micro-kernel, a complete implementation of
BSD UNIX on top of that, and the NextStep GUI on top of both.  (Yes, Display
PostScript was also an important part of the system architecture, if you
want to be *really* pedantic.)

Darwin apparently now also includes substantial amounts of code from the
FreeBSD project, which can also trace its ancestry directly back to the
original BSD UNIX operating system.

The name "UNIX" is specifically and legally reserved for operating systems
which pass the Single Unix Specification qualification tests, as
administered by the Open Group (and previously administered by OSF and
X/Open, at times), and whose vendors have also entered into a licensing
agreement with the Open Group to permit their use of the term UNIX(tm).
Note that POSIX-compliance by itself does NOT entitle an operating system to
call itself UNIX.

The Linux kernel is NOT UNIX.  It is *impossible* for the Linux kernel
itself to be called UNIX, because the UNIX requirements include vast amounts
of "user-land" software in addition to the kernel.  This means that each
distribution would have to independently undergo certification to qualify
for the UNIX trademark.

At least one Linux distribution ("LINUX-FT") has been certified as
POSIX.1-compliant, but not as UNIX(tm).
[http://www.ukuug.org/newsletter/linux-newsletter/linux at uk21/posix.shtml]
The vendor in question (Lasermoon) appears to be defunct, and the Linux-FT
development appears to have been taken over by Caldera (back when they were
pro-Linux).  Linux-FT, however, derived from a german distribution called
"Unifix Linux System".  Their website still exists (www.unifix.de) but
hasn't been updated since 2001.  The Unifix product page for v2.0
(http://www.unifix.de/products/unifix_2_0/index.html) claims that their
system is POSIX-certified... but it also proudly claims that it's based on
the 2.0 kernel.  I can't find any indication that the company is still
active.

Other currently-available operating systems that *are* "UNIX" include
Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, z/OS, and UnixWare (if SCO still answers their
phones!).  UNIXes that are no longer available (AFAIK) include SGI IRIX, NEC
UX/4800, NCR (TeraData) UNIX, SCO OpenServer, NEC FT-UX, and Stratus FTX.
The official list can be found at
http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/.

Operating systems derived from BSD UNIX also have some legal basis to be
called "UNIX"; Apple's Mac OS X is in fact the only operating system that
has both the ancestral BSD claim *and* Open Group certification.  Sun
Solaris, IBM AIX, HP HP-UX, whatever NEC/TeraData ships now and SCO UnixWare
also have (at various versions) dual claims, but deriving from AT&T UNIX
licenses, not BSD.

So in terms of currently shipping product, the most UNIXy of UNIXes are:
MacOS X, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX and UnixWare.  Linux doesn't even make it to
the qualifying heats.


> 	When upgrading an Intel Mac from 10.4 to 10.6 I was able to
[...]
>
> 	They've finally implemented something like the pager. They
> call it Open Spaces. By default it gives the user four virtual
> screens.

Spaces, which closely mimics the "pager"-style behaviour that's been around
under UNIX since at least early versions of NCDwm (ca. 1991), has been
included since Mac OS X 10.5.
Expos?, which is a somewhat different feature that many people used to
obtain the same sort of productivity boost, has been included since Mac OS X
10.3.

FYI, the multiple-desktop feature has also been available under Microsoft
Windows to anyone running a Matrox video card (since about 1996) or ATI
video card (since about 1998, IIRC).

-Adam "Pedantic" Thompson
 <athompso at athompso.net>


From athompso at athompso.net  Wed Dec 16 22:19:57 2009
From: athompso at athompso.net (Adam Thompson)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:19:57 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com> <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>	
	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
	<B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAABE3583GrIlMiq9sUPpBGkwBAAAAAA==@athompso.net>

> I was at the Apple store yesterday, asking about Snow Leopard.  I had
> understood earlier that it was an 'upgrade' from Leopard - but the guy
> in the store says it's a complete OS and has no previous requirements
> (except the firmware, I assume).
>
> So there is also one being sold for $200?

Snow Leopard is available as an upgrade or as a bundled license with
purchase of new hardware.
To purchase it as an upgrade, you must be running Mac OS X on an Intel CPU,
which implicitly limits the offer to owners of Mac OS X 10.4 or newer only.
If you purchased a machine running 10.5 after June 8th, 2009, the 10.6
upgrade is available for CAD9.95, otherwise the upgrade costs CAD35.00.
(Prices are taken from the Apple Store online, Canadian site.  Actually,
another page says the "up-to-date" program costs CAD13.00, not CAD9.95... go
figure.)

Note that Snow Leopard is NOT available for purchase online as a full
license.  I don't know if the Apple Store sells it as such, but I doubt it
because:

1) 10.6 requires an Intel processor.
2) 10.6 is available as an upgrade to ANY MAC with an Intel processor.
3) ALL MACs with Intel processors were sold with a bundled license for
whatever version of Mac OS was current at the time of manufacture.

...so why would it be available as anything other than an upgrade?
(Note: This is the same logic Microsoft uses to justify only selling Windows
7 "upgrade" licenses to volume purchasers - the underlying assumption is
that all your PCs came with OEM licenses.)

-Adam

From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Wed Dec 16 23:26:06 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:26:06 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <4B29A25C.6090905@pogma.com>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com>
	<4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
	<4B29A25C.6090905@pogma.com>
Message-ID: <D81FCB98-4AF9-4737-8EE9-6F50473CE6C9@gmail.com>


On 2009-12-16, at 9:15 PM, Peter O'Gorman wrote:

> On 12/16/2009 09:10 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> 
>> 	They've finally implemented something like the pager. They call it Open Spaces. By default it gives the user four virtual screens.
>> 
> 
> Spaces was in 10.5 too :)
> 
> Peter

	Like I said, I didn't have 10.5. ;-) now I know.

				Later
				Mike



From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Wed Dec 16 23:30:20 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:30:20 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com> <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>
	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
	<B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <C2ED3324-ED97-4964-9E48-2FE23FE071D9@gmail.com>


On 2009-12-16, at 10:02 PM, Dan Martin wrote:

> I was at the Apple store yesterday, asking about Snow Leopard.  I had understood earlier that it was an 'upgrade' from Leopard - but the guy in the store says it's a complete OS and has no previous requirements (except the firmware, I assume).

	As long as it is Intel then any version will work.

> So there is also one being sold for $200?

	Quick answer is yes. I gather the $200 version has more stuff to make up for what was apparently in 10.5 but not 10.4. Apart from that and the price I have no idea what the actual difference is. One person who replied later appears to have more info. Then again I'm looking at it from the perspective of being $160 I didn't have to spend.

> -Dan

				Later
				Mike



> On 16-Dec-09, at 9:10 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> 
>> 	Since OS X sort of qualifies as *NIX here goes...
>> 
>> 	When upgrading an Intel Mac from 10.4 to 10.6 I was able to skip 10.5 by using the $40 (after tax) upgrade package instead of the $200 complete package Apple wants 10.4 users to buy. It's been running for three or four days now with no serious problems. I just had to manually download newer versions of a couple of third party programs.
>> 
>> 	They've finally implemented something like the pager. They call it Open Spaces. By default it gives the user four virtual screens.
>> 
>> 				Later
>> 				Mike
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> 
> Dan Martin
> GP Hospital Practitioner
> Computer Scientist
> ummar143 at shaw.ca
> (204) 831-1746
> answering machine always on
> 



From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Wed Dec 16 23:36:59 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:36:59 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAABE3583GrIlMiq9sUPpBGkwBAAAAAA==@athompso.net>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com> <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>	
	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
	<B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>
	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAABE3583GrIlMiq9sUPpBGkwBAAAAAA==@athompso.net>
Message-ID: <7CC78D38-93CD-41BE-9E2F-71BF8EAB13DE@gmail.com>


On 2009-12-16, at 10:19 PM, Adam Thompson wrote:

>> I was at the Apple store yesterday, asking about Snow Leopard.  I had
>> understood earlier that it was an 'upgrade' from Leopard - but the guy
>> in the store says it's a complete OS and has no previous requirements
>> (except the firmware, I assume).
>> 
>> So there is also one being sold for $200?
> 
> Snow Leopard is available as an upgrade or as a bundled license with
> purchase of new hardware.
> To purchase it as an upgrade, you must be running Mac OS X on an Intel CPU,
> which implicitly limits the offer to owners of Mac OS X 10.4 or newer only.
> If you purchased a machine running 10.5 after June 8th, 2009, the 10.6
> upgrade is available for CAD9.95, otherwise the upgrade costs CAD35.00.
> (Prices are taken from the Apple Store online, Canadian site.  Actually,
> another page says the "up-to-date" program costs CAD13.00, not CAD9.95... go
> figure.)

	BTW, if you want to take advantage of the cheap pricing of $10, you need to send in your paperwork within 90 days. Apple is NOT flexible on this. Lindsay (who sometimes attends meetings) waited 93 days and was turned down.

> Note that Snow Leopard is NOT available for purchase online as a full
> license.  I don't know if the Apple Store sells it as such, but I doubt it
> because:
> 
> 1) 10.6 requires an Intel processor.
> 2) 10.6 is available as an upgrade to ANY MAC with an Intel processor.
> 3) ALL MACs with Intel processors were sold with a bundled license for
> whatever version of Mac OS was current at the time of manufacture.

	I think you are correct. I only saw the $40 and $200 versions on the shelf.

> 
> ...so why would it be available as anything other than an upgrade?
> (Note: This is the same logic Microsoft uses to justify only selling Windows
> 7 "upgrade" licenses to volume purchasers - the underlying assumption is
> that all your PCs came with OEM licenses.)

	I think they just sell the major upgrades. The minor ones are free downloads via patches. I suspect the cheaper versions are because people are having sticker shock. After all $200 is a pretty big hit every 18 months or so.

> -Adam


				Later
				Mike




From peter at pogma.com  Wed Dec 16 23:40:35 2009
From: peter at pogma.com (Peter O'Gorman)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:40:35 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAAGPkeSsenyVCoA05pjqDfQ0BAAAAAA==@athompso.net>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com>
	<4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>		<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAAGPkeSsenyVCoA05pjqDfQ0BAAAAAA==@athompso.net>
Message-ID: <4B29C453.4080300@pogma.com>

On 12/16/2009 10:09 PM, Adam Thompson wrote:
>> Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
>> 	Since OS X sort of qualifies as *NIX here goes...
>
> Not sort of: Mac OS X *is* UNIX.

Mac OS X 10.5 and 10.6 on intel are UNIX03, earlier versions are not, 
Apple also never bothered qualifying the ppc version of 10.5 (who can 
blame them?).

Peter
-- 
Peter O'Gorman
http://pogma.com

From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Wed Dec 16 23:48:05 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:48:05 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <4B29B1A7.6050404@pogma.com>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com>
	<4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
	<B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>
	<4B29B1A7.6050404@pogma.com>
Message-ID: <1D364193-09AB-4F9C-B06F-0365B15C8CF3@gmail.com>


On 2009-12-16, at 10:20 PM, Peter O'Gorman wrote:

> On 12/16/2009 10:02 PM, Dan Martin wrote:
>> I was at the Apple store yesterday, asking about Snow Leopard.  I had
>> understood earlier that it was an 'upgrade' from Leopard - but the guy
>> in the store says it's a complete OS and has no previous requirements
>> (except the firmware, I assume).
>> 
>> So there is also one being sold for $200?
> 
> http://store.apple.com/ca/product/MC209Z/A
> 
> It does also include iLife and iWork.
> 
> Peter

	I wonder if it's the full versions... 10.4 had demo versions of some of the products. As demos I found them to be pretty useless. What's more I find demands for money for things I probably won't use to be quite offensive. There are a number of pretty good free products out there. Nowhere near the number of items as there is for Linux mind you but there are some good ones out there. I mean, why use M$ Word when there is NeoOffice... I've installed the Perian Codec package, Gimp (I think it wants a new version), Simply Burns, VLC, NeoOffice (naturally) and a couple of others. Anyhow... Since I don't use iLife and iWork (same as most people I think) there is no need to pay for it.

				Later
				Mike




From athompso at athompso.net  Wed Dec 16 23:59:02 2009
From: athompso at athompso.net (Adam Thompson)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:59:02 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <1D364193-09AB-4F9C-B06F-0365B15C8CF3@gmail.com>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com>	<4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>	
	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>	
	<B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>	<4B29B1A7.6050404@pogma.com>
	<1D364193-09AB-4F9C-B06F-0365B15C8CF3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAAHo7IR9gbllEgAqU88sQLV0BAAAAAA==@athompso.net>

> >> So there is also one being sold for $200?
> > http://store.apple.com/ca/product/MC209Z/A
> > It does also include iLife and iWork.
>
> 	I wonder if it's the full versions... 10.4 had demo versions
> of some of the products.

Yes, the $200 package includes the full versions of (AFAIK) iLife and iWork
'09.

> As demos I found them to be pretty
> useless.

As full versions, I found them to be pretty useless :-)

Well, that's not true.  iPhoto is actually quite a well-done app, as long as
you understand its scope: it's not *supposed* to replace PhotoShop or
LightRoom.

> What's more I find demands for money for things I probably
> won't use to be quite offensive.

Well, that's why you bought the $35 upgrade instead of the $200 package,
right?

> There are a number of pretty good
> free products out there. Nowhere near the number of items as there
> is for Linux mind you but there are some good ones out there. I
> mean, why use M$ Word when there is NeoOffice... I've installed the
> Perian Codec package, Gimp (I think it wants a new version), Simply
> Burns, VLC, NeoOffice (naturally) and a couple of others. Anyhow...
> Since I don't use iLife and iWork (same as most people I think)
> there is no need to pay for it.

I don't know many people who use iWork.  I tried for most of a year, and
disliked (most of) the products quite intensely.  Pages is NOT a competitor
to Microsoft Word, it's a competitor to Microsoft Publisher.  I think Apple
is flat-out lying when they call it a word processor.  I don't know WHAT
Numbers is supposed to be... some bizarre cross between Publisher and Excel,
I suppose.  Keynote, on the other hand, is actually a pretty decent product.
It's not quite as powerful as PowerPoint, but it's infinitely easier to use
(and prettier) for relatively simple presentations.  I don't care if my
spreadsheet is pretty or not, but I'll grant that it actually is a relevant
concern for slide presentations.

Much like iWork, iLife also rests on the strength of one application:
iPhoto.  It's generally a category-leading application at any given point in
time, although everyone else usually catches up pretty quickly.  iMovie was
good, then they crippled it, not sure why.  (Maybe it was eating into
FinalCut sales?)  GarageBand, um... dunno.  It sure didn't do anything for
me.  And iWeb - the less said, the better.  I created one site in iWeb...
again, it seems to be something that competes head-to-head with Microsoft
Publisher, but this time there's no File->Print option :-).

-Adam

From bdoob at acm.org  Thu Dec 17 17:16:34 2009
From: bdoob at acm.org (Brian Doob)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:16:34 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAAHo7IR9gbllEgAqU88sQLV0BAAAAAA==@athompso.net>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com> <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>
	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
	<B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>
	<4B29B1A7.6050404@pogma.com>
	<1D364193-09AB-4F9C-B06F-0365B15C8CF3@gmail.com>
	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAAHo7IR9gbllEgAqU88sQLV0BAAAAAA==@athompso.net>
Message-ID: <0B07F11A-7C76-4B6C-86B1-E0CEFCF4DBE4@acm.org>

I use Apple GarageBand extensively, and it is *very* good. I think I'd  
call it "category leading", but it's a little tricky to define its  
category. It's a highlight of iLife for anyone who does audio editing,  
post-production sound mixing or computer music creation.

			-Brian

On 2009-December-16, at 11:59 PM, Adam Thompson wrote:

>>>> So there is also one being sold for $200?
>>> http://store.apple.com/ca/product/MC209Z/A
>>> It does also include iLife and iWork.
>>
>> 	I wonder if it's the full versions... 10.4 had demo versions
>> of some of the products.
>
> Yes, the $200 package includes the full versions of (AFAIK) iLife  
> and iWork
> '09.
>
>> As demos I found them to be pretty
>> useless.
>
> As full versions, I found them to be pretty useless :-)
>
> Well, that's not true.  iPhoto is actually quite a well-done app, as  
> long as
> you understand its scope: it's not *supposed* to replace PhotoShop or
> LightRoom.
>
>> What's more I find demands for money for things I probably
>> won't use to be quite offensive.
>
> Well, that's why you bought the $35 upgrade instead of the $200  
> package,
> right?
>
>> There are a number of pretty good
>> free products out there. Nowhere near the number of items as there
>> is for Linux mind you but there are some good ones out there. I
>> mean, why use M$ Word when there is NeoOffice... I've installed the
>> Perian Codec package, Gimp (I think it wants a new version), Simply
>> Burns, VLC, NeoOffice (naturally) and a couple of others. Anyhow...
>> Since I don't use iLife and iWork (same as most people I think)
>> there is no need to pay for it.
>
> I don't know many people who use iWork.  I tried for most of a year,  
> and
> disliked (most of) the products quite intensely.  Pages is NOT a  
> competitor
> to Microsoft Word, it's a competitor to Microsoft Publisher.  I  
> think Apple
> is flat-out lying when they call it a word processor.  I don't know  
> WHAT
> Numbers is supposed to be... some bizarre cross between Publisher  
> and Excel,
> I suppose.  Keynote, on the other hand, is actually a pretty decent  
> product.
> It's not quite as powerful as PowerPoint, but it's infinitely easier  
> to use
> (and prettier) for relatively simple presentations.  I don't care if  
> my
> spreadsheet is pretty or not, but I'll grant that it actually is a  
> relevant
> concern for slide presentations.
>
> Much like iWork, iLife also rests on the strength of one application:
> iPhoto.  It's generally a category-leading application at any given  
> point in
> time, although everyone else usually catches up pretty quickly.   
> iMovie was
> good, then they crippled it, not sure why.  (Maybe it was eating into
> FinalCut sales?)  GarageBand, um... dunno.  It sure didn't do  
> anything for
> me.  And iWeb - the less said, the better.  I created one site in  
> iWeb...
> again, it seems to be something that competes head-to-head with  
> Microsoft
> Publisher, but this time there's no File->Print option :-).
>
> -Adam
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable


From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Thu Dec 17 18:18:30 2009
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:18:30 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <0B07F11A-7C76-4B6C-86B1-E0CEFCF4DBE4@acm.org>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com> <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>
	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
	<B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>
	<4B29B1A7.6050404@pogma.com>
	<1D364193-09AB-4F9C-B06F-0365B15C8CF3@gmail.com>
	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAAHo7IR9gbllEgAqU88sQLV0BAAAAAA==@athompso.net>
	<0B07F11A-7C76-4B6C-86B1-E0CEFCF4DBE4@acm.org>
Message-ID: <F313A268-1E6F-4D25-B0FE-5145DC5DAC44@gmail.com>


On 2009-12-17, at 5:16 PM, Brian Doob wrote:

> I use Apple GarageBand extensively, and it is *very* good. I think I'd call it "category leading", but it's a little tricky to define its category. It's a highlight of iLife for anyone who does audio editing, post-production sound mixing or computer music creation.
> 

	10.4 seemed to have a full version. I haven't checked out 10.6. I thought it and iPhoto were separate from iLife.

	At one point when I was younger, I was in the "not too bad" category of amateur musicians. I tried GarageBand myself for a few weeks. From what I saw I formed a generally favourable opinion of the program. Of course after all this time my skills as a musician are no longer there and GarageBand wouldn't be able to fix a disaster no matter how good a program it is. ;-)

> 			-Brian

				Later
				Mike

> 
> On 2009-December-16, at 11:59 PM, Adam Thompson wrote:
> 
>>>>> So there is also one being sold for $200?
>>>> http://store.apple.com/ca/product/MC209Z/A
>>>> It does also include iLife and iWork.
>>> 
>>> 	I wonder if it's the full versions... 10.4 had demo versions
>>> of some of the products.
>> 
>> Yes, the $200 package includes the full versions of (AFAIK) iLife and iWork
>> '09.
>> 
>>> As demos I found them to be pretty
>>> useless.
>> 
>> As full versions, I found them to be pretty useless :-)
>> 
>> Well, that's not true.  iPhoto is actually quite a well-done app, as long as
>> you understand its scope: it's not *supposed* to replace PhotoShop or
>> LightRoom.
>> 
>>> What's more I find demands for money for things I probably
>>> won't use to be quite offensive.
>> 
>> Well, that's why you bought the $35 upgrade instead of the $200 package,
>> right?
>> 
>>> There are a number of pretty good
>>> free products out there. Nowhere near the number of items as there
>>> is for Linux mind you but there are some good ones out there. I
>>> mean, why use M$ Word when there is NeoOffice... I've installed the
>>> Perian Codec package, Gimp (I think it wants a new version), Simply
>>> Burns, VLC, NeoOffice (naturally) and a couple of others. Anyhow...
>>> Since I don't use iLife and iWork (same as most people I think)
>>> there is no need to pay for it.
>> 
>> I don't know many people who use iWork.  I tried for most of a year, and
>> disliked (most of) the products quite intensely.  Pages is NOT a competitor
>> to Microsoft Word, it's a competitor to Microsoft Publisher.  I think Apple
>> is flat-out lying when they call it a word processor.  I don't know WHAT
>> Numbers is supposed to be... some bizarre cross between Publisher and Excel,
>> I suppose.  Keynote, on the other hand, is actually a pretty decent product.
>> It's not quite as powerful as PowerPoint, but it's infinitely easier to use
>> (and prettier) for relatively simple presentations.  I don't care if my
>> spreadsheet is pretty or not, but I'll grant that it actually is a relevant
>> concern for slide presentations.
>> 
>> Much like iWork, iLife also rests on the strength of one application:
>> iPhoto.  It's generally a category-leading application at any given point in
>> time, although everyone else usually catches up pretty quickly.  iMovie was
>> good, then they crippled it, not sure why.  (Maybe it was eating into
>> FinalCut sales?)  GarageBand, um... dunno.  It sure didn't do anything for
>> me.  And iWeb - the less said, the better.  I created one site in iWeb...
>> again, it seems to be something that competes head-to-head with Microsoft
>> Publisher, but this time there's no File->Print option :-).
>> 
>> -Adam
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> 



From montanaq at gmail.com  Thu Dec 17 21:15:38 2009
From: montanaq at gmail.com (Montana Quiring)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:15:38 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <0B07F11A-7C76-4B6C-86B1-E0CEFCF4DBE4@acm.org>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com> <4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>
	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>
	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>
	<B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>
	<4B29B1A7.6050404@pogma.com>
	<1D364193-09AB-4F9C-B06F-0365B15C8CF3@gmail.com>
	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAAHo7IR9gbllEgAqU88sQLV0BAAAAAA==@athompso.net>
	<0B07F11A-7C76-4B6C-86B1-E0CEFCF4DBE4@acm.org>
Message-ID: <bdad73b60912171915g496601acw40500892019ac2c0@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 5:16 PM, Brian Doob <bdoob at acm.org> wrote:

> I use Apple GarageBand extensively, and it is *very* good. I think I'd
> call it "category leading", but it's a little tricky to define its
> category. It's a highlight of iLife for anyone who does audio editing,
> post-production sound mixing or computer music creation.
>
>                        -Brian
>
Seconded.
-Montana
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From peter at pogma.com  Fri Dec 18 09:19:56 2009
From: peter at pogma.com (Peter O'Gorman)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:19:56 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] OS X tips
In-Reply-To: <F313A268-1E6F-4D25-B0FE-5145DC5DAC44@gmail.com>
References: <4B2194B1.9050104@gmail.com>
	<4B219818.4080300@pogma.com>	<4B21B1C3.2020801@gmail.com>	<EB794351-9C10-4C6C-B914-C75C12A45FB7@gmail.com>	<B417DC77-FE6C-4CEB-853E-8205D3AA5CA4@shaw.ca>	<4B29B1A7.6050404@pogma.com>	<1D364193-09AB-4F9C-B06F-0365B15C8CF3@gmail.com>	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHzNGRiUZ1REos20ozPrILnCgAAAEAAAAHo7IR9gbllEgAqU88sQLV0BAAAAAA==@athompso.net>	<0B07F11A-7C76-4B6C-86B1-E0CEFCF4DBE4@acm.org>
	<F313A268-1E6F-4D25-B0FE-5145DC5DAC44@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B2B9D9C.3000104@pogma.com>

On 12/17/2009 06:18 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>
> On 2009-12-17, at 5:16 PM, Brian Doob wrote:
>
> 	10.4 seemed to have a full version. I haven't checked out 10.6.
>

Usually iLife is included for "free" only when you buy a new Mac. It 
doesn't come with the standard OS - so I have Mac OS X 10.6 and iLife 
from 2006 :)

Peter
-- 
Peter O'Gorman
http://pogma.com

From montanaq at gmail.com  Fri Dec 18 10:08:00 2009
From: montanaq at gmail.com (Montana Quiring)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:08:00 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Changes for Ubuntu?
Message-ID: <bdad73b60912180808m2051a371rb156f277e759107@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting read (Linux Journal) about the changes going on at Canonical:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/even-self-appointed-benevolent-dictators-need-little-change

-Montana
Blog and Aggregation Site:
http://montanaquiring.info
iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
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From john at johnlange.ca  Mon Dec 21 11:30:39 2009
From: john at johnlange.ca (John Lange)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:30:39 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Text based spread sheet
Message-ID: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>

I have a very wide "tab delimited" file that I need to edit in an ssh
console.

I've been downloading it, editing it with OpenOffice, then re-uploading
it but aside from being tedious, that isn't always possible if I don't
have my laptop handy.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a curses based program that
would make my life easier? I have no requirements other than editing and
preserving the file's tab structure in columns. If it can keep the top
row (the column labels) in view while editing that would be a bonus.

-- 
John Lange
http://www.johnlange.ca


From sean at tinfoilhat.ca  Mon Dec 21 11:34:44 2009
From: sean at tinfoilhat.ca (Sean Cody)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:34:44 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Text based spread sheet
In-Reply-To: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
References: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
Message-ID: <1BDC0ED8-6A0E-4EDF-8C9A-CF7953AA469E@tinfoilhat.ca>

Sorry I can't hold back on this one....

awk!!!! FTW!

On 2009-12-21, at 11:30 AM, John Lange wrote:

> I have a very wide "tab delimited" file that I need to edit in an ssh
> console.
> 
> I've been downloading it, editing it with OpenOffice, then re-uploading
> it but aside from being tedious, that isn't always possible if I don't
> have my laptop handy.
> 
> Does anyone have any recommendations for a curses based program that
> would make my life easier? I have no requirements other than editing and
> preserving the file's tab structure in columns. If it can keep the top
> row (the column labels) in view while editing that would be a bonus.
> 
> -- 
> John Lange
> http://www.johnlange.ca
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable

-- 
Sean



From sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca  Mon Dec 21 11:39:21 2009
From: sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca (Scott Balneaves)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:39:21 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Text based spread sheet
In-Reply-To: <1BDC0ED8-6A0E-4EDF-8C9A-CF7953AA469E@tinfoilhat.ca>
References: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
	<1BDC0ED8-6A0E-4EDF-8C9A-CF7953AA469E@tinfoilhat.ca>
Message-ID: <20091221173921.GD2163@legalaid.mb.ca>

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:34:44AM -0600, Sean Cody wrote:
> Sorry I can't hold back on this one....
> 
> awk!!!! FTW!

For a curses spreadsheet try sc.

Scott

-- 
Scott L. Balneaves | "I know not with what weapons World War III will be
Systems Department |  fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks
Legal Aid Manitoba |  and stones."  -- Albert Einstein

From ve4drk at gmail.com  Mon Dec 21 11:36:02 2009
From: ve4drk at gmail.com (Dan Keizer)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:36:02 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Text based spread sheet
In-Reply-To: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
References: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
Message-ID: <daf1b8090912210936n2e160568t209ddb16cb21875a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John .. in the days of VMS -- we used to use S20/20 :-)

but .. doing a quick check . .it seems "SC" may be what you're looking for.

Dan.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:30 AM, John Lange <john at johnlange.ca> wrote:
> I have a very wide "tab delimited" file that I need to edit in an ssh
> console.
>
> I've been downloading it, editing it with OpenOffice, then re-uploading
> it but aside from being tedious, that isn't always possible if I don't
> have my laptop handy.
>
> Does anyone have any recommendations for a curses based program that
> would make my life easier? I have no requirements other than editing and
> preserving the file's tab structure in columns. If it can keep the top
> row (the column labels) in view while editing that would be a bonus.
>
> --
> John Lange
> http://www.johnlange.ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>

From stuart at swilliams.ca  Mon Dec 21 16:44:52 2009
From: stuart at swilliams.ca (Stuart Williams)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:44:52 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Text based spread sheet
In-Reply-To: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
References: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
Message-ID: <db6e78040912211444r215448c7t1a5f5c1be0f6434b@mail.gmail.com>

vi
emacs
etc.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:30 AM, John Lange <john at johnlange.ca> wrote:

> I have a very wide "tab delimited" file that I need to edit in an ssh
> console.
>
> I've been downloading it, editing it with OpenOffice, then re-uploading
> it but aside from being tedious, that isn't always possible if I don't
> have my laptop handy.
>
> Does anyone have any recommendations for a curses based program that
> would make my life easier? I have no requirements other than editing and
> preserving the file's tab structure in columns. If it can keep the top
> row (the column labels) in view while editing that would be a bonus.
>
> --
> John Lange
> http://www.johnlange.ca
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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From john at johnlange.ca  Tue Dec 22 13:59:31 2009
From: john at johnlange.ca (John Lange)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:59:31 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Text based spread sheet
In-Reply-To: <db6e78040912211444r215448c7t1a5f5c1be0f6434b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
	<db6e78040912211444r215448c7t1a5f5c1be0f6434b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1261511971.3210.67.camel@linux-k6vx.site>

Thanks to those that suggested "sc". It however does not appear to be
supported or developed any longer and there are no SUSE packages for it.
I could compile it but ultimately I need something that will work in
production so I'd rather avoid that.

Stuart suggested vi or emacs but I could not get either of them to
display tabs in columns.

I also tried 'joe', and 'nano'. No luck.

Regards,
-- 
John Lange
http://www.johnlange.ca

On Mon, 2009-12-21 at 16:44 -0600, Stuart Williams wrote:
> vi
> emacs
> etc.
> 
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:30 AM, John Lange <john at johnlange.ca>
> wrote:
>         I have a very wide "tab delimited" file that I need to edit in
>         an ssh
>         console.
>         
>         I've been downloading it, editing it with OpenOffice, then
>         re-uploading
>         it but aside from being tedious, that isn't always possible if
>         I don't
>         have my laptop handy.
>         
>         Does anyone have any recommendations for a curses based
>         program that
>         would make my life easier? I have no requirements other than
>         editing and
>         preserving the file's tab structure in columns. If it can keep
>         the top
>         row (the column labels) in view while editing that would be a
>         bonus.
>         
>         --
>         John Lange
>         http://www.johnlange.ca
>         
>         _______________________________________________
>         Roundtable mailing list
>         Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>         http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> 




From gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca  Tue Dec 22 14:30:38 2009
From: gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca (Gilbert E. Detillieux)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 14:30:38 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Text based spread sheet
In-Reply-To: <1261511971.3210.67.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
References: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>	<db6e78040912211444r215448c7t1a5f5c1be0f6434b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1261511971.3210.67.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
Message-ID: <4B312C6E.90605@cs.umanitoba.ca>

On 2009-12-22 13:59, John Lange wrote:
> Thanks to those that suggested "sc". It however does not appear to be
> supported or developed any longer and there are no SUSE packages for it.
> I could compile it but ultimately I need something that will work in
> production so I'd rather avoid that.

A couple other outdated, text-mode spreadsheets you might have more luck 
with...

GNU Oleo:	http://www.gnu.org/software/oleo/
SIAG:		http://siag.nu/siag/

Both of these provided both an X11-based GUI as well as a text-based 
interface (curses?).  Oleo is no longer maintained.  Siag seems to be a 
little less dated.  Not sure about package availability for OpenSUSE for 
either of these.

-- 
Gilbert E. Detillieux		E-mail:	<gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca>
Dept. of Computer Science	Web:	http://www.cs.umanitoba.ca/~gedetil/
University of Manitoba		Phone:	(204)474-8161
Winnipeg MB CANADA  R3T 2N2	Fax:	(204)474-7609

From stuartw at mts.net  Wed Dec 23 07:46:20 2009
From: stuartw at mts.net (Stuart Williams)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:46:20 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Text based spread sheet
In-Reply-To: <1261511971.3210.67.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
References: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
	<db6e78040912211444r215448c7t1a5f5c1be0f6434b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1261511971.3210.67.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
Message-ID: <db6e78040912230546q2282f65do75dd94214035e66e@mail.gmail.com>

In emacs, M-x set-variable tab-width N where N is wider than your widest
column datum should work, unless I'm not understanding what you mean by
displaying tabs in columns.  If you don't want all the columns displaying
the same width, use M-x edit-tab-stops to customize them.

Then there's SES mode, a spreadsheet written in emacs, which I've never used
and probably never will, but it's always fun to try to think of some
application that couldn't or hasn't been written in emacs and then get
surprised to find it has.

Stuart.

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 1:59 PM, John Lange <john at johnlange.ca> wrote:

> Thanks to those that suggested "sc". It however does not appear to be
> supported or developed any longer and there are no SUSE packages for it.
> I could compile it but ultimately I need something that will work in
> production so I'd rather avoid that.
>
> Stuart suggested vi or emacs but I could not get either of them to
> display tabs in columns.
>
> I also tried 'joe', and 'nano'. No luck.
>
> Regards,
> --
> John Lange
> http://www.johnlange.ca
>
> On Mon, 2009-12-21 at 16:44 -0600, Stuart Williams wrote:
> > vi
> > emacs
> > etc.
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:30 AM, John Lange <john at johnlange.ca>
> > wrote:
> >         I have a very wide "tab delimited" file that I need to edit in
> >         an ssh
> >         console.
> >
> >         I've been downloading it, editing it with OpenOffice, then
> >         re-uploading
> >         it but aside from being tedious, that isn't always possible if
> >         I don't
> >         have my laptop handy.
> >
> >         Does anyone have any recommendations for a curses based
> >         program that
> >         would make my life easier? I have no requirements other than
> >         editing and
> >         preserving the file's tab structure in columns. If it can keep
> >         the top
> >         row (the column labels) in view while editing that would be a
> >         bonus.
> >
> >         --
> >         John Lange
> >         http://www.johnlange.ca
> >
> >         _______________________________________________
> >         Roundtable mailing list
> >         Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> >         http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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From stuartw at mts.net  Wed Dec 23 07:46:48 2009
From: stuartw at mts.net (Stuart Williams)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 07:46:48 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Text based spread sheet
In-Reply-To: <1261511971.3210.67.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
References: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
	<db6e78040912211444r215448c7t1a5f5c1be0f6434b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1261511971.3210.67.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
Message-ID: <db6e78040912230546h1b1db94ay9d40ae9d7b0409f7@mail.gmail.com>

In emacs, M-x set-variable tab-width N where N is wider than your widest
column datum should work, unless I'm not understanding what you mean by
displaying tabs in columns.  If you don't want all the columns displaying
the same width, use M-x edit-tab-stops to customize them.

Then there's SES mode, a spreadsheet written in emacs, which I've never used
and probably never will, but it's always fun to try to think of some
application that couldn't or hasn't been written in emacs and then get
surprised to find it has.

Stuart.

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 1:59 PM, John Lange <john at johnlange.ca> wrote:

> Thanks to those that suggested "sc". It however does not appear to be
> supported or developed any longer and there are no SUSE packages for it.
> I could compile it but ultimately I need something that will work in
> production so I'd rather avoid that.
>
> Stuart suggested vi or emacs but I could not get either of them to
> display tabs in columns.
>
> I also tried 'joe', and 'nano'. No luck.
>
> Regards,
> --
> John Lange
> http://www.johnlange.ca
>
> On Mon, 2009-12-21 at 16:44 -0600, Stuart Williams wrote:
> > vi
> > emacs
> > etc.
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 11:30 AM, John Lange <john at johnlange.ca>
> > wrote:
> >         I have a very wide "tab delimited" file that I need to edit in
> >         an ssh
> >         console.
> >
> >         I've been downloading it, editing it with OpenOffice, then
> >         re-uploading
> >         it but aside from being tedious, that isn't always possible if
> >         I don't
> >         have my laptop handy.
> >
> >         Does anyone have any recommendations for a curses based
> >         program that
> >         would make my life easier? I have no requirements other than
> >         editing and
> >         preserving the file's tab structure in columns. If it can keep
> >         the top
> >         row (the column labels) in view while editing that would be a
> >         bonus.
> >
> >         --
> >         John Lange
> >         http://www.johnlange.ca
> >
> >         _______________________________________________
> >         Roundtable mailing list
> >         Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> >         http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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From swalberg at gmail.com  Wed Dec 23 09:34:22 2009
From: swalberg at gmail.com (Sean Walberg)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 09:34:22 -0600
Subject: [RndTbl] Text based spread sheet
In-Reply-To: <db6e78040912230546h1b1db94ay9d40ae9d7b0409f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1261416639.3546.9.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
	<db6e78040912211444r215448c7t1a5f5c1be0f6434b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1261511971.3210.67.camel@linux-k6vx.site>
	<db6e78040912230546h1b1db94ay9d40ae9d7b0409f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cc43a8f80912230734w269f67xf6f1d9a03749bb45@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Stuart Williams <stuartw at mts.net> wrote:

> ... it's always fun to try to think of some application that couldn't or
> hasn't been written in emacs and then get surprised to find it has.
>

 emacs is still missing a decent text editor.

*ducks*

Sean

-- 
Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com>    http://ertw.com/
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