From grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca  Wed Sep  1 16:55:27 2010
From: grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca (Gilles Detillieux)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 16:55:27 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] wireless N router recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <4C76DD84.5040902@gmail.com>
References: <4C76BEF3.4000604@scrc.umanitoba.ca> <4C76DD84.5040902@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C7ECBCF.6010501@scrc.umanitoba.ca>

Thanks, Mike and Sean, for your replies last Thursday.  I had been 
reasonably happy with my Linksys WRT54G until recently, but I find that 
lately it needs to be reset more than I'd like (once or twice a week). 
That and the wish for faster wireless data transfers (though no need yet 
for streaming, so bursty traffic is OK) and hopefully a bit more range 
prompted me to look into wireless N router options.  I had been 
considering the D-Link 655, even though it's not dual-band (and after 
what Sean said, perhaps dual-band isn't worth the extra expense), so I 
appreciate the positive feedback on this model.  I'm inclined to give it 
a shot.

Thanks,
Gilles

On 08/26/2010 04:32 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> On 10-08-26 02:22 PM, Gilles Detillieux wrote:
>> I was talking to Gilbert about recommendations for wireless N routers,
>> as I'm in the market for one.  I'm not particularly interested in
>> running custom firmware (just need good, solid, secure and reliable
>> wireless LAN and basic Internet support), so this post is perhaps
>> slightly off-topic in this forum.  But Gilbert did mention that there
>> had been discussion at a recent meeting about Wireless N antenna
>> strength, and some recommendations (mostly negative) about specific
>> routers, though he couldn't recall specific brands mentioned.
>>
>> Any good dual-band models in the $70 to $130 price range?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Gilles
>>
> 
> 	I'm running a D-Link 655. It's OK. Reviews last year put it third from 
> the top from what the reviewers were looking for. I have to agree with 
> Sean. I can connect a USB NIC to my Mint box and it works well but if 
> there is a choice between G and N the NIC will choose G. To be fair I 
> haven't tried to force an N connection. This particular router has 
> gigabit (wired) capabilities. As to reliability... It was running for a 
> couple of months steady last winter.
> 
> 	As coincidence would have it, I am running it now with a test machine. 
> If you'd like to try it out as is and you happen to be in Windsor Park 
> just East of WPC it is there and open. No internet connection though. 
> I've tried to make the SSID as obvious as possible. If you want to make 
> arrangements to see what it is like if we force an N connection, let me 
> know before Friday of next week when the machine goes back.
> 
> 				Later
> 				Mike

-- 
Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)

From Steve.Moffat at ca.ibm.com  Thu Sep  2 15:33:29 2010
From: Steve.Moffat at ca.ibm.com (Steve Moffat)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 15:33:29 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Roundtable Digest, Vol 69, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1283446804.11449.roundtable@muug.mb.ca>
References: <mailman.1.1283446804.11449.roundtable@muug.mb.ca>
Message-ID: <OFCBDE0AF1.F6D6BE65-ON85257792.0070B132-86257792.0070EEFB@ca.ibm.com>

Hey Gilles;
Not sure if you have changed the firmware on your WRT54G, but I've been
using tomato for a couple of years now.  It is rock solid and, in my
opinion, performs better than the original firmware.
You might give that a try.
http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato

Steve Moffat




From:       roundtable-request at muug.mb.ca
To:         roundtable at muug.mb.ca
Date:       09/02/2010 12:00 PM
Subject:    Roundtable Digest, Vol 69, Issue 1
Sent by:    roundtable-bounces at muug.mb.ca



Send Roundtable mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: wireless N router recommendations? (Gilles Detillieux)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 16:55:27 -0500
From: Gilles Detillieux <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: Re: [RndTbl] wireless N router recommendations?
To: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
Message-ID: <4C7ECBCF.6010501 at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Thanks, Mike and Sean, for your replies last Thursday.  I had been
reasonably happy with my Linksys WRT54G until recently, but I find that
lately it needs to be reset more than I'd like (once or twice a week).
That and the wish for faster wireless data transfers (though no need yet
for streaming, so bursty traffic is OK) and hopefully a bit more range
prompted me to look into wireless N router options.  I had been
considering the D-Link 655, even though it's not dual-band (and after
what Sean said, perhaps dual-band isn't worth the extra expense), so I
appreciate the positive feedback on this model.  I'm inclined to give it
a shot.

Thanks,
Gilles

On 08/26/2010 04:32 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> On 10-08-26 02:22 PM, Gilles Detillieux wrote:
>> I was talking to Gilbert about recommendations for wireless N routers,
>> as I'm in the market for one.  I'm not particularly interested in
>> running custom firmware (just need good, solid, secure and reliable
>> wireless LAN and basic Internet support), so this post is perhaps
>> slightly off-topic in this forum.  But Gilbert did mention that there
>> had been discussion at a recent meeting about Wireless N antenna
>> strength, and some recommendations (mostly negative) about specific
>> routers, though he couldn't recall specific brands mentioned.
>>
>> Any good dual-band models in the $70 to $130 price range?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Gilles
>>
>
>            I'm running a D-Link 655. It's OK. Reviews last year put it
third from
> the top from what the reviewers were looking for. I have to agree with
> Sean. I can connect a USB NIC to my Mint box and it works well but if
> there is a choice between G and N the NIC will choose G. To be fair I
> haven't tried to force an N connection. This particular router has
> gigabit (wired) capabilities. As to reliability... It was running for a
> couple of months steady last winter.
>
>            As coincidence would have it, I am running it now with a test
machine.
> If you'd like to try it out as is and you happen to be in Windsor Park
> just East of WPC it is there and open. No internet connection though.
> I've tried to make the SSID as obvious as possible. If you want to make
> arrangements to see what it is like if we force an N connection, let me
> know before Friday of next week when the machine goes back.
>
>                                                Later
>                                                Mike

--
Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)


------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Roundtable mailing list
Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable


End of Roundtable Digest, Vol 69, Issue 1
*****************************************




From kevin.a.mcgregor at gmail.com  Thu Sep  2 21:05:41 2010
From: kevin.a.mcgregor at gmail.com (Kevin McGregor)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 21:05:41 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Roundtable Digest, Vol 69, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <OFCBDE0AF1.F6D6BE65-ON85257792.0070B132-86257792.0070EEFB@ca.ibm.com>
References: <mailman.1.1283446804.11449.roundtable@muug.mb.ca>
	<OFCBDE0AF1.F6D6BE65-ON85257792.0070B132-86257792.0070EEFB@ca.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimkoNh=FxgFhhx9cq98pssCx8PPT2CNpM=RcoSx@mail.gmail.com>

FWIW, I use OpenWRT (www.openwrt.org) on a WRT54GL, and it works very well.
No pretty bandwidth graphs like tomato, but pretty flexible.

Kevin

On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Steve Moffat <Steve.Moffat at ca.ibm.com>wrote:

> Hey Gilles;
> Not sure if you have changed the firmware on your WRT54G, but I've been
> using tomato for a couple of years now.  It is rock solid and, in my
> opinion, performs better than the original firmware.
> You might give that a try.
> http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato
>
> Steve Moffat
>
>
>
>
> From:       roundtable-request at muug.mb.ca
> To:         roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> Date:       09/02/2010 12:00 PM
> Subject:    Roundtable Digest, Vol 69, Issue 1
> Sent by:    roundtable-bounces at muug.mb.ca
>
>
>
> Send Roundtable mailing list submissions to
>             roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>             http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>             roundtable-request at muug.mb.ca
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>             roundtable-owner at muug.mb.ca
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Roundtable digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: wireless N router recommendations? (Gilles Detillieux)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 16:55:27 -0500
> From: Gilles Detillieux <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
> Subject: Re: [RndTbl] wireless N router recommendations?
> To: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
> Message-ID: <4C7ECBCF.6010501 at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Thanks, Mike and Sean, for your replies last Thursday.  I had been
> reasonably happy with my Linksys WRT54G until recently, but I find that
> lately it needs to be reset more than I'd like (once or twice a week).
> That and the wish for faster wireless data transfers (though no need yet
> for streaming, so bursty traffic is OK) and hopefully a bit more range
> prompted me to look into wireless N router options.  I had been
> considering the D-Link 655, even though it's not dual-band (and after
> what Sean said, perhaps dual-band isn't worth the extra expense), so I
> appreciate the positive feedback on this model.  I'm inclined to give it
> a shot.
>
> Thanks,
> Gilles
>
> On 08/26/2010 04:32 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> > On 10-08-26 02:22 PM, Gilles Detillieux wrote:
> >> I was talking to Gilbert about recommendations for wireless N routers,
> >> as I'm in the market for one.  I'm not particularly interested in
> >> running custom firmware (just need good, solid, secure and reliable
> >> wireless LAN and basic Internet support), so this post is perhaps
> >> slightly off-topic in this forum.  But Gilbert did mention that there
> >> had been discussion at a recent meeting about Wireless N antenna
> >> strength, and some recommendations (mostly negative) about specific
> >> routers, though he couldn't recall specific brands mentioned.
> >>
> >> Any good dual-band models in the $70 to $130 price range?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Gilles
> >>
> >
> >            I'm running a D-Link 655. It's OK. Reviews last year put it
> third from
> > the top from what the reviewers were looking for. I have to agree with
> > Sean. I can connect a USB NIC to my Mint box and it works well but if
> > there is a choice between G and N the NIC will choose G. To be fair I
> > haven't tried to force an N connection. This particular router has
> > gigabit (wired) capabilities. As to reliability... It was running for a
> > couple of months steady last winter.
> >
> >            As coincidence would have it, I am running it now with a test
> machine.
> > If you'd like to try it out as is and you happen to be in Windsor Park
> > just East of WPC it is there and open. No internet connection though.
> > I've tried to make the SSID as obvious as possible. If you want to make
> > arrangements to see what it is like if we force an N connection, let me
> > know before Friday of next week when the machine goes back.
> >
> >                                                Later
> >                                                Mike
>
> --
> Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
> Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
> Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
>
> End of Roundtable Digest, Vol 69, Issue 1
> *****************************************
>
>
>
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From grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca  Fri Sep  3 10:01:02 2010
From: grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca (Gilles Detillieux)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 10:01:02 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] wireless N router recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimkoNh=FxgFhhx9cq98pssCx8PPT2CNpM=RcoSx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1283446804.11449.roundtable@muug.mb.ca>	<OFCBDE0AF1.F6D6BE65-ON85257792.0070B132-86257792.0070EEFB@ca.ibm.com>
	<AANLkTimkoNh=FxgFhhx9cq98pssCx8PPT2CNpM=RcoSx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C810DAE.2080404@scrc.umanitoba.ca>

Thanks, Kevin and Steve.  I would consider trying alternate firmware, or 
even looking for a Linksys firmware upgrade, if I suspected the firmware 
was the problem.  But I have a 54G v8, not a 54GL or 54G v1-4, so the 
Linux-based firmware isn't likely to work with this.  I had a 54G v5 
before this v8 model, and there was a reliability issue with it that was 
solved by a firmware upgrade.  But that model packed it in a couple 
years ago, and the v8 that I got to replace it hasn't been as solid as 
the v5 was (at least before it packed it in).  I did upgrade the Linksys 
firware on it once last year, and that didn't seem to make a difference, 
though it might be worth another look.

I was just hoping for something a little faster, with better range, and 
hopefully a little more reliable, for a reasonable cost.  The D-Link 655 
still sounds like it'll be worth a shot, though from what I heard on 
this forum I realize I shouldn't get my hopes up too high as far as the 
speed improvement is concerned.

Thanks again,
Gilles

On 09/02/2010 09:05 PM, Kevin McGregor wrote:
> FWIW, I use OpenWRT (www.openwrt.org <http://www.openwrt.org>) on a 
> WRT54GL, and it works very well. No pretty bandwidth graphs like tomato, 
> but pretty flexible.
> 
> Kevin
> 
> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Steve Moffat <Steve.Moffat at ca.ibm.com 
> <mailto:Steve.Moffat at ca.ibm.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Hey Gilles;
>     Not sure if you have changed the firmware on your WRT54G, but I've been
>     using tomato for a couple of years now.  It is rock solid and, in my
>     opinion, performs better than the original firmware.
>     You might give that a try.
>     http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato
> 
>     Steve Moffat
...
>     Message: 1
>     Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 16:55:27 -0500
>     From: Gilles Detillieux <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca
>     <mailto:grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>>
>     Subject: Re: [RndTbl] wireless N router recommendations?
>     To: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>     <mailto:roundtable at muug.mb.ca>>
>     Message-ID: <4C7ECBCF.6010501 at scrc.umanitoba.ca
>     <mailto:4C7ECBCF.6010501 at scrc.umanitoba.ca>>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
>     Thanks, Mike and Sean, for your replies last Thursday.  I had been
>     reasonably happy with my Linksys WRT54G until recently, but I find that
>     lately it needs to be reset more than I'd like (once or twice a week).
>     That and the wish for faster wireless data transfers (though no need yet
>     for streaming, so bursty traffic is OK) and hopefully a bit more range
>     prompted me to look into wireless N router options.  I had been
>     considering the D-Link 655, even though it's not dual-band (and after
>     what Sean said, perhaps dual-band isn't worth the extra expense), so I
>     appreciate the positive feedback on this model.  I'm inclined to give it
>     a shot.
> 
>     Thanks,
>     Gilles
> 
>     On 08/26/2010 04:32 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>      > On 10-08-26 02:22 PM, Gilles Detillieux wrote:
>      >> I was talking to Gilbert about recommendations for wireless N
>     routers,
>      >> as I'm in the market for one.  I'm not particularly interested in
>      >> running custom firmware (just need good, solid, secure and reliable
>      >> wireless LAN and basic Internet support), so this post is perhaps
>      >> slightly off-topic in this forum.  But Gilbert did mention that
>     there
>      >> had been discussion at a recent meeting about Wireless N antenna
>      >> strength, and some recommendations (mostly negative) about specific
>      >> routers, though he couldn't recall specific brands mentioned.
>      >>
>      >> Any good dual-band models in the $70 to $130 price range?
>      >>
>      >> Thanks,
>      >> Gilles
>      >>
>      >
>      >            I'm running a D-Link 655. It's OK. Reviews last year
>     put it
>     third from
>      > the top from what the reviewers were looking for. I have to agree
>     with
>      > Sean. I can connect a USB NIC to my Mint box and it works well but if
>      > there is a choice between G and N the NIC will choose G. To be fair I
>      > haven't tried to force an N connection. This particular router has
>      > gigabit (wired) capabilities. As to reliability... It was running
>     for a
>      > couple of months steady last winter.
>      >
>      >            As coincidence would have it, I am running it now with
>     a test
>     machine.
>      > If you'd like to try it out as is and you happen to be in Windsor
>     Park
>      > just East of WPC it is there and open. No internet connection though.
>      > I've tried to make the SSID as obvious as possible. If you want
>     to make
>      > arrangements to see what it is like if we force an N connection,
>     let me
>      > know before Friday of next week when the machine goes back.
>      >
>      >                                                Later
>      >                                                Mike

-- 
Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)

From ve4drk at gmail.com  Fri Sep  3 10:13:16 2010
From: ve4drk at gmail.com (Dan Keizer)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 10:13:16 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] wireless N router recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <4C810DAE.2080404@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
References: <mailman.1.1283446804.11449.roundtable@muug.mb.ca>
	<OFCBDE0AF1.F6D6BE65-ON85257792.0070B132-86257792.0070EEFB@ca.ibm.com>
	<AANLkTimkoNh=FxgFhhx9cq98pssCx8PPT2CNpM=RcoSx@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C810DAE.2080404@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikDHjW32ZS29nqKKaPiOtoz2+Uzx2D96NL_vOJ+@mail.gmail.com>

your router is supported:

http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/support/router-database

i've used openwrt and dd-wrt and they are both quite good.

Dan.

On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Gilles Detillieux
<grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca> wrote:
> Thanks, Kevin and Steve. ?I would consider trying alternate firmware, or
> even looking for a Linksys firmware upgrade, if I suspected the firmware
> was the problem. ?But I have a 54G v8, not a 54GL or 54G v1-4, so the
> Linux-based firmware isn't likely to work with this. ?I had a 54G v5
> before this v8 model, and there was a reliability issue with it that was
> solved by a firmware upgrade. ?But that model packed it in a couple
> years ago, and the v8 that I got to replace it hasn't been as solid as
> the v5 was (at least before it packed it in). ?I did upgrade the Linksys
> firware on it once last year, and that didn't seem to make a difference,
> though it might be worth another look.
>
> I was just hoping for something a little faster, with better range, and
> hopefully a little more reliable, for a reasonable cost. ?The D-Link 655
> still sounds like it'll be worth a shot, though from what I heard on
> this forum I realize I shouldn't get my hopes up too high as far as the
> speed improvement is concerned.
>
> Thanks again,
> Gilles
>
> On 09/02/2010 09:05 PM, Kevin McGregor wrote:
>> FWIW, I use OpenWRT (www.openwrt.org <http://www.openwrt.org>) on a
>> WRT54GL, and it works very well. No pretty bandwidth graphs like tomato,
>> but pretty flexible.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Steve Moffat <Steve.Moffat at ca.ibm.com
>> <mailto:Steve.Moffat at ca.ibm.com>> wrote:
>>
>> ? ? Hey Gilles;
>> ? ? Not sure if you have changed the firmware on your WRT54G, but I've been
>> ? ? using tomato for a couple of years now. ?It is rock solid and, in my
>> ? ? opinion, performs better than the original firmware.
>> ? ? You might give that a try.
>> ? ? http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato
>>
>> ? ? Steve Moffat
> ...
>> ? ? Message: 1
>> ? ? Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 16:55:27 -0500
>> ? ? From: Gilles Detillieux <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca
>> ? ? <mailto:grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>>
>> ? ? Subject: Re: [RndTbl] wireless N router recommendations?
>> ? ? To: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> ? ? <mailto:roundtable at muug.mb.ca>>
>> ? ? Message-ID: <4C7ECBCF.6010501 at scrc.umanitoba.ca
>> ? ? <mailto:4C7ECBCF.6010501 at scrc.umanitoba.ca>>
>> ? ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> ? ? Thanks, Mike and Sean, for your replies last Thursday. ?I had been
>> ? ? reasonably happy with my Linksys WRT54G until recently, but I find that
>> ? ? lately it needs to be reset more than I'd like (once or twice a week).
>> ? ? That and the wish for faster wireless data transfers (though no need yet
>> ? ? for streaming, so bursty traffic is OK) and hopefully a bit more range
>> ? ? prompted me to look into wireless N router options. ?I had been
>> ? ? considering the D-Link 655, even though it's not dual-band (and after
>> ? ? what Sean said, perhaps dual-band isn't worth the extra expense), so I
>> ? ? appreciate the positive feedback on this model. ?I'm inclined to give it
>> ? ? a shot.
>>
>> ? ? Thanks,
>> ? ? Gilles
>>
>> ? ? On 08/26/2010 04:32 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>> ? ? ?> On 10-08-26 02:22 PM, Gilles Detillieux wrote:
>> ? ? ?>> I was talking to Gilbert about recommendations for wireless N
>> ? ? routers,
>> ? ? ?>> as I'm in the market for one. ?I'm not particularly interested in
>> ? ? ?>> running custom firmware (just need good, solid, secure and reliable
>> ? ? ?>> wireless LAN and basic Internet support), so this post is perhaps
>> ? ? ?>> slightly off-topic in this forum. ?But Gilbert did mention that
>> ? ? there
>> ? ? ?>> had been discussion at a recent meeting about Wireless N antenna
>> ? ? ?>> strength, and some recommendations (mostly negative) about specific
>> ? ? ?>> routers, though he couldn't recall specific brands mentioned.
>> ? ? ?>>
>> ? ? ?>> Any good dual-band models in the $70 to $130 price range?
>> ? ? ?>>
>> ? ? ?>> Thanks,
>> ? ? ?>> Gilles
>> ? ? ?>>
>> ? ? ?>
>> ? ? ?> ? ? ? ? ? ?I'm running a D-Link 655. It's OK. Reviews last year
>> ? ? put it
>> ? ? third from
>> ? ? ?> the top from what the reviewers were looking for. I have to agree
>> ? ? with
>> ? ? ?> Sean. I can connect a USB NIC to my Mint box and it works well but if
>> ? ? ?> there is a choice between G and N the NIC will choose G. To be fair I
>> ? ? ?> haven't tried to force an N connection. This particular router has
>> ? ? ?> gigabit (wired) capabilities. As to reliability... It was running
>> ? ? for a
>> ? ? ?> couple of months steady last winter.
>> ? ? ?>
>> ? ? ?> ? ? ? ? ? ?As coincidence would have it, I am running it now with
>> ? ? a test
>> ? ? machine.
>> ? ? ?> If you'd like to try it out as is and you happen to be in Windsor
>> ? ? Park
>> ? ? ?> just East of WPC it is there and open. No internet connection though.
>> ? ? ?> I've tried to make the SSID as obvious as possible. If you want
>> ? ? to make
>> ? ? ?> arrangements to see what it is like if we force an N connection,
>> ? ? let me
>> ? ? ?> know before Friday of next week when the machine goes back.
>> ? ? ?>
>> ? ? ?> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Later
>> ? ? ?> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Mike
>
> --
> Gilles R. Detillieux ? ? ? ? ? ? ?E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
> Spinal Cord Research Centre ? ? ? WWW: ? ?http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
> Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba ?Winnipeg, MB ?R3E 0J9 ?(Canada)
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>


From athompso at athompso.net  Fri Sep  3 10:31:46 2010
From: athompso at athompso.net (Adam Thompson)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2010 10:31:46 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] wireless N router recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <4C7ECBCF.6010501@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
References: <4C76BEF3.4000604@scrc.umanitoba.ca> <4C76DD84.5040902@gmail.com>
	<4C7ECBCF.6010501@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <001301cb4b7d$1ed9b350$5c8d19f0$@athompso.net>

[This isn't specifically about 'N' routers, but...]

I've used the Buffalo Technology (www.buffalotech.com) routers a fair bit, 
and have been consistently impressed by them.  They also tend to get 
excellent reviews.

Their "high-power" models give consistently better range than stock 
WRT54Gs (for example) *without* burning out the radio.
I found you can get the same range out of a WRT54G simply by turning up 
the transmit power and adding a slightly better antenna, but then the 
WRT54G burns out within a year.

The Buffalo units (I think) keep the standard Broadcom reference design 
that everyone uses, but they add a separate RF amp on the RF output to 
boost power and sensitivity.  (Yes, that boosts noise as well, but it 
doesn't seem to be a problem.)

The unit I've used is the WHR-HP-G54, which among other features can run 
modified firmware (DD-WRT, for example) but for simpler cases also has a 
physical SWITCH on the back to turn it into an AP.  The single antenna 
provided was always good enough for my use cases.

Read all about it at 
http://www.buffalotech.com/products/wireless/routers-and-access-points/airstation-wireless-g-high-power-router-access-point-whr-hp-g54/.

I don't know of any retail stores carrying it, but it's widely available 
online in Canada: http://www.pricebat.ca/search.php?q=WHR-HP-G54, starting 
at around $55.

Their 'N' models also (with one exception) can run custom firmware (again, 
using DD-WRT as my reference, see 
http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/support/router-database for details) but I 
don't have any personal experience with those (yet).  Following Consumer 
Reports' methodology, "reliability is predicted to be better than average 
based on this brand's repair history".

-Adam




From grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca  Fri Sep  3 13:33:32 2010
From: grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca (Gilles Detillieux)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2010 13:33:32 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] wireless N router recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <001301cb4b7d$1ed9b350$5c8d19f0$@athompso.net>
References: <4C76BEF3.4000604@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
	<4C76DD84.5040902@gmail.com>	<4C7ECBCF.6010501@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
	<001301cb4b7d$1ed9b350$5c8d19f0$@athompso.net>
Message-ID: <4C813F7C.3030808@scrc.umanitoba.ca>

Thanks, Adam, for both your recommendations - Buffalo Tech and 
pricebat.ca (which I hadn't heard about before).  The WHR-HP-G300N is 
the one I'm interested in now.

BestDirect seems to have the best price on it.  Anyone have any 
experience with them, good or bad?

On 09/03/2010 10:31 AM, Adam Thompson wrote:
> [This isn't specifically about 'N' routers, but...]
> 
> I've used the Buffalo Technology (www.buffalotech.com) routers a fair bit, 
> and have been consistently impressed by them.  They also tend to get 
> excellent reviews.
> 
> Their "high-power" models give consistently better range than stock 
> WRT54Gs (for example) *without* burning out the radio.
> I found you can get the same range out of a WRT54G simply by turning up 
> the transmit power and adding a slightly better antenna, but then the 
> WRT54G burns out within a year.
> 
> The Buffalo units (I think) keep the standard Broadcom reference design 
> that everyone uses, but they add a separate RF amp on the RF output to 
> boost power and sensitivity.  (Yes, that boosts noise as well, but it 
> doesn't seem to be a problem.)
> 
> The unit I've used is the WHR-HP-G54, which among other features can run 
> modified firmware (DD-WRT, for example) but for simpler cases also has a 
> physical SWITCH on the back to turn it into an AP.  The single antenna 
> provided was always good enough for my use cases.
> 
> Read all about it at 
> http://www.buffalotech.com/products/wireless/routers-and-access-points/airstation-wireless-g-high-power-router-access-point-whr-hp-g54/.
> 
> I don't know of any retail stores carrying it, but it's widely available 
> online in Canada: http://www.pricebat.ca/search.php?q=WHR-HP-G54, starting 
> at around $55.
> 
> Their 'N' models also (with one exception) can run custom firmware (again, 
> using DD-WRT as my reference, see 
> http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/support/router-database for details) but I 
> don't have any personal experience with those (yet).  Following Consumer 
> Reports' methodology, "reliability is predicted to be better than average 
> based on this brand's repair history".
> 
> -Adam

-- 
Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)

From gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca  Tue Sep  7 12:09:55 2010
From: gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca (Gilbert E. Detillieux)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 12:09:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [RndTbl] MUUG Meeting, Sept 14, 7:30pm -- A Trio of RTFM, Part Deux!
Message-ID: <201009071709.o87H9t018930@iron.cs.umanitoba.ca>

The Manitoba UNIX User Group (MUUG) will be holding its next monthly
meeting on Tuesday, September 14.  The meeting topic for this month is
as follows:

   A Trio of RTFM, Part Deux!

   Once  again  this  month,  were  offering  you  a trio of RTFM
   presentations! To start, Gilbert Detillieux will be introducing the
   diff(1) command. Next up, Michael Doob will follow up on Adams RTFM
   in June on the awk(1) command, showing you how to use it for more
   substantial scripting. Finally, Sean Cody will present the screen(1)
   and tmux(1) commands.

The group holds its general meetings at 7:30pm on the second Tuesday of
every month from September to June.  (There are no meetings in July and
August.) Meetings are open to the general public; you don't have to be a
MUUG member to attend.

   **********************************************************************
   Please note our meeting location: The IBM offices, at 400 Ellice Ave.
   (between Edmonton and Kennedy). When you arrive, you will have to
   sign in at the reception desk, and then wait for someone to take you
   (in groups) to the meeting room. Please try to arrive by about 7:15pm, 
   so the meeting can start promptly at 7:30pm. Don't be late, or you may
   not get in.  (But don't come too early either, since security may not
   be there to let you in before 7:15 or so.) Non-members may be required
   to show photo ID at the security desk.

   Limited parking is available for free on the street, either on Ellice
   Ave. or on some of the intersecting streets. Indoor parking is also
   available nearby, at Portage Place, for $5.00 for the evening. Bicycle
   parking is available in a bike rack under video surveillance located
   behind the building on Webb Place.
   **********************************************************************

For more information about MUUG, and its monthly meetings, check out their
Web server:

	http://www.muug.mb.ca/

Help us promote this month's meeting, by putting this poster up on your
workplace bulletin board or other suitable public message board:

	http://www.muug.mb.ca/meetings/MUUGmeeting.pdf

-- 
Gilbert E. Detillieux		E-mail: <gedetil at muug.mb.ca>
Manitoba UNIX User Group	Web:	http://www.muug.mb.ca/
PO Box 130 St-Boniface		Phone:  (204)474-8161
Winnipeg MB CANADA  R2H 3B4	Fax:    (204)474-7609

From trevor at tecnopolis.ca  Fri Sep 10 03:09:16 2010
From: trevor at tecnopolis.ca (Trevor Cordes)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 03:09:16 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] ssh host checking
Message-ID: <20100910080916.GA29990@pog.tecnopolis.ca>

What security will I lose by using ssh with:
-o StrictHostKeyChecking=no -o CheckHostIP=no
?

I have a script that connects automatically to dozens of linux boxen (that 
I control) on the internet using dsa/rsa keys.  Many of these are on MTS 
DSL and so change their IP's frequently (often many times a week).  They 
all have dynamic dns setup so I can always access them via a DNS domain 
name (rather than IP).

If I use the ssh defaults of StrictHostKeyChecking=ask and 
CheckHostIP=yes, it mostly works as expected, but sometimes my script will 
hang with ssh waiting for tty input with the usual:

The authenticity of host 'foo.com (141.162.215.81)' can't be established.
Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)?

I don't mind this for new boxes where I haven't confirmed the fingerprint 
yet, but for existing boxes where the IP has changed, it sometimes gives 
me grief.  I can't recall all the particular instances, but the one that 
just hit me was one of my MTS boxes cycled onto an IP that was previously 
used by a different box!  Seems rather unlikely, but with DSL hanging up 
all the time, it's bound to happen.  I see no way around this occurrence 
except to use the above -o options to disable all checks.

So what attacks am I really opening myseful up to with those settings?  Is 
the worst case that a MitM captures my commands?  Or is the worst case 
that they gain my password/key and access to the remote system?

What else?

It sure would be nice if I could, on my local box, install a key or 
something from each of the remote boxen and say that I never care about 
what IP it has at the moment, just check the key and be happy & secure.

For all scenarios assume local + remote boxes have not been compromised.

Thanks!

From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Wed Sep 15 14:56:32 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:56:32 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Mac as a web server
Message-ID: <4C9124F0.6000708@gmail.com>

	This is just something to keep me occupied for a while. It isn't 
anything serious (yet).

	As I said at this months meeting I have a spare G4 server sitting 
around. Last month I was playing around with the current Ubuntu server. 
I found some applications which should work as long as the revision 
level of the software is fine. Which is to say they worked with Ubuntu 
server but whine and complain about the default revisions on the G4 (OS 
X 10.4 desktop). It really shouldn't be too difficult to set things up 
on a Mac...

	Here is what I've done so far.

	After a couple of days of reading on the web I found people are 
suggesting upgrading to 10.5 (out of the question), or updating the 
software to something close to current. The suggestions are Apache 2.x, 
MySQL 5.x, and PHP 5.x would be good things to install. The defaults are 
Apache 1.3, and PHP 4.x. I don't know if MySQL is installed. Oh, and it 
was suggested Webmin would be good for playing around on a small scale.

	I tried installing the individual components separately based on what 
they suggested on the product web sites and had mixed success. Although 
PHP was in the 5.x range it wasn't near current. Apache 2.x installed 
but the built in 1.3 wouldn't let it run properly. MySQL just whined.

	Following some suggestions from the net I looked at a series of 
programs called MAMP and found the installation to be very easy. All the 
software it installed was relatively up to date. Everything ran well 
with a major show stopper. Connecting locally was fine but connecting 
through the LAN defaulted back to the old software versions. It seems 
MAMP and another series of programs called XAMPP only want to be run 
locally as a development environment.

	There was one web page I found about 20 minutes ago which suggested 
using Mac Ports to update the software. After getting into the page a 
little there was a hint I wouldn't have much more in the way of success 
if I went that route.

	Oh, I also made sure Personal Web Sharing was turned off in the System 
Preferences.

	Now for the request for some advice...

	If I were running an Intel Mac I would just install a virtual machine 
with Ubuntu server or something similar and be done with it. 
Unfortunately the G4 is a PPC and not an Intel box.

	Does anybody have any advice on where to proceed from here? The Mac 
Ports idea might be worth a look if I can somehow point the default 
server away from Apache 1.3 to 2.x. Running MAMP may have some merit 
since I can change the default port to 80. Unfortunately Webmin wants to 
run on a different port and defaults back to Apache 1.3. I could install 
*BSD but I think that's a little more involved than I want to get at 
this point.

	Like the problem I was having with PHP last year, it's probably a 10 
second fix. The problem is where to apply the fix. ;-)

				Later
				Mike


From peter at pogma.com  Wed Sep 15 15:32:53 2010
From: peter at pogma.com (Peter O'Gorman)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 15:32:53 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Mac as a web server
In-Reply-To: <4C9124F0.6000708@gmail.com>
References: <4C9124F0.6000708@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C912D75.20500@pogma.com>

On 09/15/2010 02:56 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> 	Now for the request for some advice...
>
> 	If I were running an Intel Mac I would just install a virtual machine
> with Ubuntu server or something similar and be done with it.
> Unfortunately the G4 is a PPC and not an Intel box.
>
> 	Does anybody have any advice on where to proceed from here? The Mac
> Ports idea might be worth a look if I can somehow point the default
> server away from Apache 1.3 to 2.x. Running MAMP may have some merit
> since I can change the default port to 80. Unfortunately Webmin wants to
> run on a different port and defaults back to Apache 1.3. I could install
> *BSD but I think that's a little more involved than I want to get at
> this point.
>

You can try macports, fink or homebrew to install it, all of them will 
compile the whole shebang on your machine, but the MAMP bundle that you 
downloaded already has a standard apache, mysql and php.

You should be able to edit the ports by clicking on MAMP.app 
Preferences... Ports and changing apache to 80 and mysql to 3306. You 
can also just edit the conf files in /Applications/MAMP/conf.

You can start and stop mysql and apache from the command line with:
sudo /Applications/MAMP/bin/startApache.sh etc.

Peter

http://macports.org
http://finkproject.org
http://mxcl.github.com/homebrew/

From helgi at binary.is  Wed Sep 15 15:16:05 2010
From: helgi at binary.is (Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 15:16:05 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Mac as a web server
In-Reply-To: <4C9124F0.6000708@gmail.com>
References: <4C9124F0.6000708@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikWBchxU59z7pq-Jmkm0ou_wcSjJ4tYgch6d_3t@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!

I don't know if this is much of a help, but you can easily run Linux on a G4
Mac. I'm running it as a personal server at home on an ancient G4 laptop.
Debian in particular is particularly apathetic to CPUs, you just put in the
CD and install as if it were any other kind of computer, which is why I use
it on my PowerPC "personal server" machines... well, also because Debian
simply kicks a$$.

http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/powerpc/iso-cd/debian-506-powerpc-netinst.iso

Sorry if this is just ignoring everything you're trying to do, but I figured
it was worth a mention. :) - I'm afraid you'll always have problems running
the most recent versions of PHP/Apache/MySQL on a PowerPC Mac OS X
installation unless you compile them from source, but I'm not sure how
problematic that would be on Mac OS X in general. Apple tends to fiddle
around a lot with the environment and GCC, often resulting in broken
compilations from source, so I'm guessing you're up for a lot of long-term
problems sticking to Mac OS 10.4.

Long story short, if losing Mac OS X is indeed an option, Debian is
definitely the way to go with a PowerPC machine.

Hope it helps and apologies if it doesn't. ;)

Kind regards,
Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson
helgi at binary.is

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Mike Pfaiffer <high.res.mike at gmail.com>wrote:

>        This is just something to keep me occupied for a while. It isn't
> anything serious (yet).
>
>        As I said at this months meeting I have a spare G4 server sitting
> around. Last month I was playing around with the current Ubuntu server.
> I found some applications which should work as long as the revision
> level of the software is fine. Which is to say they worked with Ubuntu
> server but whine and complain about the default revisions on the G4 (OS
> X 10.4 desktop). It really shouldn't be too difficult to set things up
> on a Mac...
>
>        Here is what I've done so far.
>
>        After a couple of days of reading on the web I found people are
> suggesting upgrading to 10.5 (out of the question), or updating the
> software to something close to current. The suggestions are Apache 2.x,
> MySQL 5.x, and PHP 5.x would be good things to install. The defaults are
> Apache 1.3, and PHP 4.x. I don't know if MySQL is installed. Oh, and it
> was suggested Webmin would be good for playing around on a small scale.
>
>        I tried installing the individual components separately based on
> what
> they suggested on the product web sites and had mixed success. Although
> PHP was in the 5.x range it wasn't near current. Apache 2.x installed
> but the built in 1.3 wouldn't let it run properly. MySQL just whined.
>
>        Following some suggestions from the net I looked at a series of
> programs called MAMP and found the installation to be very easy. All the
> software it installed was relatively up to date. Everything ran well
> with a major show stopper. Connecting locally was fine but connecting
> through the LAN defaulted back to the old software versions. It seems
> MAMP and another series of programs called XAMPP only want to be run
> locally as a development environment.
>
>        There was one web page I found about 20 minutes ago which suggested
> using Mac Ports to update the software. After getting into the page a
> little there was a hint I wouldn't have much more in the way of success
> if I went that route.
>
>        Oh, I also made sure Personal Web Sharing was turned off in the
> System
> Preferences.
>
>        Now for the request for some advice...
>
>        If I were running an Intel Mac I would just install a virtual
> machine
> with Ubuntu server or something similar and be done with it.
> Unfortunately the G4 is a PPC and not an Intel box.
>
>        Does anybody have any advice on where to proceed from here? The Mac
> Ports idea might be worth a look if I can somehow point the default
> server away from Apache 1.3 to 2.x. Running MAMP may have some merit
> since I can change the default port to 80. Unfortunately Webmin wants to
> run on a different port and defaults back to Apache 1.3. I could install
> *BSD but I think that's a little more involved than I want to get at
> this point.
>
>        Like the problem I was having with PHP last year, it's probably a 10
> second fix. The problem is where to apply the fix. ;-)
>
>                                Later
>                                Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Wed Sep 15 16:49:25 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:49:25 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Mac as a web server
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikWBchxU59z7pq-Jmkm0ou_wcSjJ4tYgch6d_3t@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C9124F0.6000708@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikWBchxU59z7pq-Jmkm0ou_wcSjJ4tYgch6d_3t@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C913F65.2070707@gmail.com>

On 10-09-15 03:16 PM, Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I don't know if this is much of a help, but you can easily run Linux on a G4
> Mac. I'm running it as a personal server at home on an ancient G4 laptop.
> Debian in particular is particularly apathetic to CPUs, you just put in the
> CD and install as if it were any other kind of computer, which is why I use
> it on my PowerPC "personal server" machines... well, also because Debian
> simply kicks a$$.
>
> http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/powerpc/iso-cd/debian-506-powerpc-netinst.iso

	That's an option I will absolutely consider. Since it's a G4 there 
isn't the problem with "new world" vs "old world" Macs. I didn't think 
it would be that easy.

> Sorry if this is just ignoring everything you're trying to do, but I figured
> it was worth a mention. :) - I'm afraid you'll always have problems running
> the most recent versions of PHP/Apache/MySQL on a PowerPC Mac OS X
> installation unless you compile them from source, but I'm not sure how
> problematic that would be on Mac OS X in general. Apple tends to fiddle
> around a lot with the environment and GCC, often resulting in broken
> compilations from source, so I'm guessing you're up for a lot of long-term
> problems sticking to Mac OS 10.4.

	I was able to compile some software on my Mac Mini. So compilation is a 
possibility.

> Long story short, if losing Mac OS X is indeed an option, Debian is
> definitely the way to go with a PowerPC machine.

	I'm not really set on OS X but I'd like to see if I can exhaust the 
most reasonable possibilities first. You know how these things are... I 
am eventually going to be asked how to do it that way.

	With Debian I can apt-get install from source.

> Hope it helps and apologies if it doesn't. ;)

	It does. I suspect this is what I am most likely to do in the end. If 
not on this machine then certainly on another.

> Kind regards,
> Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson
> helgi at binary.is

				Later
				Mike



> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Mike Pfaiffer<high.res.mike at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>         This is just something to keep me occupied for a while. It isn't
>> anything serious (yet).
>>
>>         As I said at this months meeting I have a spare G4 server sitting
>> around. Last month I was playing around with the current Ubuntu server.
>> I found some applications which should work as long as the revision
>> level of the software is fine. Which is to say they worked with Ubuntu
>> server but whine and complain about the default revisions on the G4 (OS
>> X 10.4 desktop). It really shouldn't be too difficult to set things up
>> on a Mac...
>>
>>         Here is what I've done so far.
>>
>>         After a couple of days of reading on the web I found people are
>> suggesting upgrading to 10.5 (out of the question), or updating the
>> software to something close to current. The suggestions are Apache 2.x,
>> MySQL 5.x, and PHP 5.x would be good things to install. The defaults are
>> Apache 1.3, and PHP 4.x. I don't know if MySQL is installed. Oh, and it
>> was suggested Webmin would be good for playing around on a small scale.
>>
>>         I tried installing the individual components separately based on
>> what
>> they suggested on the product web sites and had mixed success. Although
>> PHP was in the 5.x range it wasn't near current. Apache 2.x installed
>> but the built in 1.3 wouldn't let it run properly. MySQL just whined.
>>
>>         Following some suggestions from the net I looked at a series of
>> programs called MAMP and found the installation to be very easy. All the
>> software it installed was relatively up to date. Everything ran well
>> with a major show stopper. Connecting locally was fine but connecting
>> through the LAN defaulted back to the old software versions. It seems
>> MAMP and another series of programs called XAMPP only want to be run
>> locally as a development environment.
>>
>>         There was one web page I found about 20 minutes ago which suggested
>> using Mac Ports to update the software. After getting into the page a
>> little there was a hint I wouldn't have much more in the way of success
>> if I went that route.
>>
>>         Oh, I also made sure Personal Web Sharing was turned off in the
>> System
>> Preferences.
>>
>>         Now for the request for some advice...
>>
>>         If I were running an Intel Mac I would just install a virtual
>> machine
>> with Ubuntu server or something similar and be done with it.
>> Unfortunately the G4 is a PPC and not an Intel box.
>>
>>         Does anybody have any advice on where to proceed from here? The Mac
>> Ports idea might be worth a look if I can somehow point the default
>> server away from Apache 1.3 to 2.x. Running MAMP may have some merit
>> since I can change the default port to 80. Unfortunately Webmin wants to
>> run on a different port and defaults back to Apache 1.3. I could install
>> *BSD but I think that's a little more involved than I want to get at
>> this point.
>>
>>         Like the problem I was having with PHP last year, it's probably a 10
>> second fix. The problem is where to apply the fix. ;-)
>>
>>                                 Later
>>                                 Mike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable


From ummar143 at shaw.ca  Wed Sep 15 17:14:47 2010
From: ummar143 at shaw.ca (Dan Martin)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:14:47 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Mac as a web server
In-Reply-To: <4C913F65.2070707@gmail.com>
References: <4C9124F0.6000708@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikWBchxU59z7pq-Jmkm0ou_wcSjJ4tYgch6d_3t@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C913F65.2070707@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F6565FA-5BC0-41E4-90E8-A405A2DE9F5A@shaw.ca>

Hi Mike

The curse of *nix users everywhere is dependency hell, and I've had my share.

I have not done what you're trying to do, but I would second Peter's suggestion to use MacPorts or Fink.

I have installed several *nix things on my Mac, the most recent being GnuPlot on Snow Leopard.  Being a slow learner, I spent a couple hours duplicating what someone at a web site had done (I'm sure with a different Mac OS and different vintage software) using install and make to compile the dependencies from zipped sources.

When it failed, I used MacPorts, and had it running within minutes.  Darwin does some weird stuff with some of the dependencies.

A long time ago I had similar experiences with Suse and Red Hat.  If the package manager (in your case MacPorts or Fink) does not have a port for the software you're looking for (and MacPorts has a lot), at least install as many dependencies as you can from the package manager before you go to the direct compilation route.

-Dan

On 2010-09-15, at 4:49 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:

> On 10-09-15 03:16 PM, Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson wrote:
>> Hi!
>> 
>> I don't know if this is much of a help, but you can easily run Linux on a G4
>> Mac. I'm running it as a personal server at home on an ancient G4 laptop.
>> Debian in particular is particularly apathetic to CPUs, you just put in the
>> CD and install as if it were any other kind of computer, which is why I use
>> it on my PowerPC "personal server" machines... well, also because Debian
>> simply kicks a$$.
>> 
>> http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/powerpc/iso-cd/debian-506-powerpc-netinst.iso
> 
> 	That's an option I will absolutely consider. Since it's a G4 there 
> isn't the problem with "new world" vs "old world" Macs. I didn't think 
> it would be that easy.
> 
>> Sorry if this is just ignoring everything you're trying to do, but I figured
>> it was worth a mention. :) - I'm afraid you'll always have problems running
>> the most recent versions of PHP/Apache/MySQL on a PowerPC Mac OS X
>> installation unless you compile them from source, but I'm not sure how
>> problematic that would be on Mac OS X in general. Apple tends to fiddle
>> around a lot with the environment and GCC, often resulting in broken
>> compilations from source, so I'm guessing you're up for a lot of long-term
>> problems sticking to Mac OS 10.4.
> 
> 	I was able to compile some software on my Mac Mini. So compilation is a 
> possibility.
> 
>> Long story short, if losing Mac OS X is indeed an option, Debian is
>> definitely the way to go with a PowerPC machine.
> 
> 	I'm not really set on OS X but I'd like to see if I can exhaust the 
> most reasonable possibilities first. You know how these things are... I 
> am eventually going to be asked how to do it that way.
> 
> 	With Debian I can apt-get install from source.
> 
>> Hope it helps and apologies if it doesn't. ;)
> 
> 	It does. I suspect this is what I am most likely to do in the end. If 
> not on this machine then certainly on another.
> 
>> Kind regards,
>> Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson
>> helgi at binary.is
> 
> 				Later
> 				Mike
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Mike Pfaiffer<high.res.mike at gmail.com>wrote:
>> 
>>>        This is just something to keep me occupied for a while. It isn't
>>> anything serious (yet).
>>> 
>>>        As I said at this months meeting I have a spare G4 server sitting
>>> around. Last month I was playing around with the current Ubuntu server.
>>> I found some applications which should work as long as the revision
>>> level of the software is fine. Which is to say they worked with Ubuntu
>>> server but whine and complain about the default revisions on the G4 (OS
>>> X 10.4 desktop). It really shouldn't be too difficult to set things up
>>> on a Mac...
>>> 
>>>        Here is what I've done so far.
>>> 
>>>        After a couple of days of reading on the web I found people are
>>> suggesting upgrading to 10.5 (out of the question), or updating the
>>> software to something close to current. The suggestions are Apache 2.x,
>>> MySQL 5.x, and PHP 5.x would be good things to install. The defaults are
>>> Apache 1.3, and PHP 4.x. I don't know if MySQL is installed. Oh, and it
>>> was suggested Webmin would be good for playing around on a small scale.
>>> 
>>>        I tried installing the individual components separately based on
>>> what
>>> they suggested on the product web sites and had mixed success. Although
>>> PHP was in the 5.x range it wasn't near current. Apache 2.x installed
>>> but the built in 1.3 wouldn't let it run properly. MySQL just whined.
>>> 
>>>        Following some suggestions from the net I looked at a series of
>>> programs called MAMP and found the installation to be very easy. All the
>>> software it installed was relatively up to date. Everything ran well
>>> with a major show stopper. Connecting locally was fine but connecting
>>> through the LAN defaulted back to the old software versions. It seems
>>> MAMP and another series of programs called XAMPP only want to be run
>>> locally as a development environment.
>>> 
>>>        There was one web page I found about 20 minutes ago which suggested
>>> using Mac Ports to update the software. After getting into the page a
>>> little there was a hint I wouldn't have much more in the way of success
>>> if I went that route.
>>> 
>>>        Oh, I also made sure Personal Web Sharing was turned off in the
>>> System
>>> Preferences.
>>> 
>>>        Now for the request for some advice...
>>> 
>>>        If I were running an Intel Mac I would just install a virtual
>>> machine
>>> with Ubuntu server or something similar and be done with it.
>>> Unfortunately the G4 is a PPC and not an Intel box.
>>> 
>>>        Does anybody have any advice on where to proceed from here? The Mac
>>> Ports idea might be worth a look if I can somehow point the default
>>> server away from Apache 1.3 to 2.x. Running MAMP may have some merit
>>> since I can change the default port to 80. Unfortunately Webmin wants to
>>> run on a different port and defaults back to Apache 1.3. I could install
>>> *BSD but I think that's a little more involved than I want to get at
>>> this point.
>>> 
>>>        Like the problem I was having with PHP last year, it's probably a 10
>>> second fix. The problem is where to apply the fix. ;-)
>>> 
>>>                                Later
>>>                                Mike
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Roundtable mailing list
>>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable

Dan Martin
GP Hospital Practitioner
Computer Scientist
ummar143 at shaw.ca
(204) 831-1746
answering machine always on



From rbdyck2 at shaw.ca  Wed Sep 15 17:40:29 2010
From: rbdyck2 at shaw.ca (Robert Dyck)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:40:29 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] SSH
In-Reply-To: <4F6565FA-5BC0-41E4-90E8-A405A2DE9F5A@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <000001cb5526$ff958ba0$6400a8c0@wp.shawcable.net>

If you're looking for something to do, Mike, I still need help getting my
Windows ME machine to log onto Ubuntu server 9 using an authentication key.
As I said before, I downloaded and installed WinSCP on my Windows ME
machine, and have SSH on the Ubuntu server. No matter if I generate the keys
on the Ubutu server, or with WinSCP, the server rejects the authentication
key. This is so I can have tight security on the web server, while
physically locating it at a remote site with a high speed internet
connection while managing it from my home office.

Rob Dyck




From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Wed Sep 15 17:47:28 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:47:28 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Mac as a web server
In-Reply-To: <4F6565FA-5BC0-41E4-90E8-A405A2DE9F5A@shaw.ca>
References: <4C9124F0.6000708@gmail.com>	<AANLkTikWBchxU59z7pq-Jmkm0ou_wcSjJ4tYgch6d_3t@mail.gmail.com>	<4C913F65.2070707@gmail.com>
	<4F6565FA-5BC0-41E4-90E8-A405A2DE9F5A@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <4C914D00.8090007@gmail.com>

On 10-09-15 05:14 PM, Dan Martin wrote:
> Hi Mike
>
> The curse of *nix users everywhere is dependency hell, and I've had
> my share.

	Yup. Me too. Especially in the early days of Red Hat (pre-enterprise).

> I have not done what you're trying to do, but I would second Peter's
> suggestion to use MacPorts or Fink.

	My response to him didn't make it to the mailing list. He also said the 
software was already installed with MAMP. A couple of minutes ago I 
realised I didn't check out the web server without going through the 
default port for Webmin. I tried it and found it was bringing up the old 
Apache 1.3 web page (or does it... - Hmm). Anyhow, if I add /MAMP/ to 
the end of the system address it brings up what MAMP considers to be the 
default system page. phpinfo() shows everything up and running properly. 
I ought to give it a try at the system level and see if it works there 
too...

	My experience with MacPorts has been pretty good on a different Mac. It 
only failed once.

> I have installed several *nix things on my Mac, the most recent being
> GnuPlot on Snow Leopard.  Being a slow learner, I spent a couple
> hours duplicating what someone at a web site had done (I'm sure with
> a different Mac OS and different vintage software) using install and
> make to compile the dependencies from zipped sources.

	Depending on what I find out I may consider using MacPorts to update 
the software I want.

> When it failed, I used MacPorts, and had it running within minutes.
> Darwin does some weird stuff with some of the dependencies.

	I installed a couple of packages on a Mac Mini. The dependencies made 
the compile take a couple of hours. Also considering this is a G4 it may 
take a while for all this too...

> A long time ago I had similar experiences with Suse and Red Hat.  If
> the package manager (in your case MacPorts or Fink) does not have a
> port for the software you're looking for (and MacPorts has a lot), at
> least install as many dependencies as you can from the package
> manager before you go to the direct compilation route.

	I'm pretty sure MacPorts has the software I want. The question is how 
to replace the default which comes from Apple. Particularly Apache. Then 
again I may already have solved my own problem (minus Webmin) and not 
realise it.

> -Dan

				Later
				Mike

P.S. Sorry I didn't say hi last night. It's just I've been getting 
REALLY tired over the last few years and things don't seem to come to 
the front of my mind the way they used to.

>
> On 2010-09-15, at 4:49 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>
>> On 10-09-15 03:16 PM, Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> I don't know if this is much of a help, but you can easily run
>>> Linux on a G4 Mac. I'm running it as a personal server at home on
>>> an ancient G4 laptop. Debian in particular is particularly
>>> apathetic to CPUs, you just put in the CD and install as if it
>>> were any other kind of computer, which is why I use it on my
>>> PowerPC "personal server" machines... well, also because Debian
>>> simply kicks a$$.
>>>
>>> http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/5.0.6/powerpc/iso-cd/debian-506-powerpc-netinst.iso
>>
>>
>>>
That's an option I will absolutely consider. Since it's a G4 there
>> isn't the problem with "new world" vs "old world" Macs. I didn't
>> think it would be that easy.
>>
>>> Sorry if this is just ignoring everything you're trying to do,
>>> but I figured it was worth a mention. :) - I'm afraid you'll
>>> always have problems running the most recent versions of
>>> PHP/Apache/MySQL on a PowerPC Mac OS X installation unless you
>>> compile them from source, but I'm not sure how problematic that
>>> would be on Mac OS X in general. Apple tends to fiddle around a
>>> lot with the environment and GCC, often resulting in broken
>>> compilations from source, so I'm guessing you're up for a lot of
>>> long-term problems sticking to Mac OS 10.4.
>>
>> I was able to compile some software on my Mac Mini. So compilation
>> is a possibility.
>>
>>> Long story short, if losing Mac OS X is indeed an option, Debian
>>> is definitely the way to go with a PowerPC machine.
>>
>> I'm not really set on OS X but I'd like to see if I can exhaust
>> the most reasonable possibilities first. You know how these things
>> are... I am eventually going to be asked how to do it that way.
>>
>> With Debian I can apt-get install from source.
>>
>>> Hope it helps and apologies if it doesn't. ;)
>>
>> It does. I suspect this is what I am most likely to do in the end.
>> If not on this machine then certainly on another.
>>
>>> Kind regards, Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson helgi at binary.is
>>
>> Later Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Mike
>>> Pfaiffer<high.res.mike at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is just something to keep me occupied for a while. It
>>>> isn't anything serious (yet).
>>>>
>>>> As I said at this months meeting I have a spare G4 server
>>>> sitting around. Last month I was playing around with the
>>>> current Ubuntu server. I found some applications which should
>>>> work as long as the revision level of the software is fine.
>>>> Which is to say they worked with Ubuntu server but whine and
>>>> complain about the default revisions on the G4 (OS X 10.4
>>>> desktop). It really shouldn't be too difficult to set things
>>>> up on a Mac...
>>>>
>>>> Here is what I've done so far.
>>>>
>>>> After a couple of days of reading on the web I found people
>>>> are suggesting upgrading to 10.5 (out of the question), or
>>>> updating the software to something close to current. The
>>>> suggestions are Apache 2.x, MySQL 5.x, and PHP 5.x would be
>>>> good things to install. The defaults are Apache 1.3, and PHP
>>>> 4.x. I don't know if MySQL is installed. Oh, and it was
>>>> suggested Webmin would be good for playing around on a small
>>>> scale.
>>>>
>>>> I tried installing the individual components separately based
>>>> on what they suggested on the product web sites and had mixed
>>>> success. Although PHP was in the 5.x range it wasn't near
>>>> current. Apache 2.x installed but the built in 1.3 wouldn't let
>>>> it run properly. MySQL just whined.
>>>>
>>>> Following some suggestions from the net I looked at a series
>>>> of programs called MAMP and found the installation to be very
>>>> easy. All the software it installed was relatively up to date.
>>>> Everything ran well with a major show stopper. Connecting
>>>> locally was fine but connecting through the LAN defaulted back
>>>> to the old software versions. It seems MAMP and another series
>>>> of programs called XAMPP only want to be run locally as a
>>>> development environment.
>>>>
>>>> There was one web page I found about 20 minutes ago which
>>>> suggested using Mac Ports to update the software. After getting
>>>> into the page a little there was a hint I wouldn't have much
>>>> more in the way of success if I went that route.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I also made sure Personal Web Sharing was turned off in
>>>> the System Preferences.
>>>>
>>>> Now for the request for some advice...
>>>>
>>>> If I were running an Intel Mac I would just install a virtual
>>>> machine with Ubuntu server or something similar and be done
>>>> with it. Unfortunately the G4 is a PPC and not an Intel box.
>>>>
>>>> Does anybody have any advice on where to proceed from here? The
>>>> Mac Ports idea might be worth a look if I can somehow point the
>>>> default server away from Apache 1.3 to 2.x. Running MAMP may
>>>> have some merit since I can change the default port to 80.
>>>> Unfortunately Webmin wants to run on a different port and
>>>> defaults back to Apache 1.3. I could install *BSD but I think
>>>> that's a little more involved than I want to get at this
>>>> point.
>>>>
>>>> Like the problem I was having with PHP last year, it's probably
>>>> a 10 second fix. The problem is where to apply the fix. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Later Mike
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Roundtable
>>>> mailing list Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>>>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ Roundtable
>>> mailing list Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing
>> list Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
> Dan Martin GP Hospital Practitioner Computer Scientist
> ummar143 at shaw.ca (204) 831-1746 answering machine always on
>
>
> _______________________________________________ Roundtable mailing
> list Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable


From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Wed Sep 15 18:33:25 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 18:33:25 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] SSH
In-Reply-To: <000001cb5526$ff958ba0$6400a8c0@wp.shawcable.net>
References: <000001cb5526$ff958ba0$6400a8c0@wp.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <4C9157C5.2030102@gmail.com>

On 10-09-15 05:40 PM, Robert Dyck wrote:
> If you're looking for something to do, Mike, I still need help getting my
> Windows ME machine to log onto Ubuntu server 9 using an authentication key.
> As I said before, I downloaded and installed WinSCP on my Windows ME
> machine, and have SSH on the Ubuntu server. No matter if I generate the keys
> on the Ubutu server, or with WinSCP, the server rejects the authentication
> key. This is so I can have tight security on the web server, while
> physically locating it at a remote site with a high speed internet
> connection while managing it from my home office.
>
> Rob Dyck
>

	I've been thinking about that. I guess the links I sent didn't help... 
Did you and Lindsay say you missed your messages with the links from a 
month ago? I could re-send them if you can't find the message.

	Just to be thorough, dig out your Mac and go into your hard drive --> 
Applications --> Utilities and run Terminal (you may also want to put 
this on your dashboard). Do an ssh to your server from there. If you can 
then go into your System Preferences --> Sharing --> Services (tab) and 
enable Remote Login. This enables you to ssh into your Mac. Try going 
the other way from your Ubuntu box to the Mac. Then from your ME box to 
the Mac. This way we can determine if it is a problem with ssh, the 
Ubuntu box, or the ME box. I think your guess about the key is the 
issue. I'd like to be sure we aren't chasing down a different problem 
first. The thing is if it works on the Mac and not the ME box then we 
can be pretty sure the problem isn't with your procedures. If it doesn't 
work with either machine then that's another story.

	Another thing to try is a program called putty. As I recall it is kind 
of like cygwin in that it can provide you with an ssh terminal (as well 
as other useful utilities for the *NIX world). I think scp is more of a 
file transfer program. If the keys aren't already working before running 
scp I don't know if it will work. This is why you may want to try using 
an ssh terminal first.

	I'm not an ssh expert. The only thing I've done with it lately is to 
open a remote shell on a different computer. I wonder if it would be 
worth while to ask if someone could do a "Sesame Street" level, hands on 
demo for the MWCS in October (the MUUG folks are always welcome to join 
us in St. James). Maybe as part of the hands on part we could see what 
can be done with your machines. Before that we have to be sure of the 
exact problem.

				Later
				Mike


From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Wed Sep 15 20:27:59 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 20:27:59 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Mac as a web server - part 2
Message-ID: <4C91729F.2060805@gmail.com>

	One of those moments you get every so often. I fixed the problem 
without realising it... This brings up several more interesting problems.

1) Webmin is still reporting it is running from Apache 1.3 yet every 
other indicator says Apache 2 is running.

	Could Webmin be reading the information from the default configuration 
files instead of probing Apache directly?

	Could I use Webmin to point to the MAMP configuration files instead?

	If so would this mean Apache 2 would start by default instead of Apache 
1.3? Specifically, no start-up script needed...

	By changing the Apache module configuration in Webmin, could I 
accidentally "mangle" the system?

	Now I KNOW everything is running, would a reinstall of Webmin be 
appropriate or should I go through the manual alteration I mentioned 
earlier?

	Is there a better administration program than Webmin? I suppose I could 
ssh in to the machine but everything is collected into one spot with Webmin.

2) I wanted to check out the system web page (http://192.168.x.y) after 
some changes and it no longer comes up.

	When I wanted to see if I could get a "<?php phpinfo() ?>" script 
running I renamed some file in the system area. The default web page no 
longer comes up. How would I get it back? Yes the files were renamed 
back to the way they were and restarting the server didn't do anything.

	Suppose I wanted a different system page. How would I set it up in 
MAMP? Normally I would have an index.html or index.php in the system 
directory.

3) As it is, all the web pages are stored under the MAMP directory.

	This is not such a big deal since in the preferences I can specify 
another location. However I might like to have different users on the 
machine at a later date. Is there a way to specify multiple directories? 
I suppose I could edit some of the files manually if I had to. Comparing 
this with Ubuntu server, the process should be trivial if I knew where 
to look.

	I would like to remove the "/MAMP" from all URLs pointing to the 
server. How? I haven't found a method of doing so yet. The closest thing 
I found is messing around with the hosts file and a number of problems 
were pointed out at that point.

***

	At that point I think the Mac could be said to be the equivalent to 
Ubuntu server... The process isn't difficult. It's just a matter of how 
you know where you are in the process. I'll start playing around with 
the Apache module in Webmin when I'm a little more awake. No need to 
risk making dumb mistakes.

				Later
				Mike


From montanaq at gmail.com  Wed Sep 15 22:12:58 2010
From: montanaq at gmail.com (Montana Quiring)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 22:12:58 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=PT4eZY58bToU5FDfoRk6z1nzwCWg02-4=n-ZR@mail.gmail.com>

I started this in Twitter and Facebook and so far Dan K. holds the
record for oldest email...Jan 10, 1987

Can anyone beat him?

-Montana
Blog and Aggregation Site:
http://montanaquiring.info
iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps

From kevin.a.mcgregor at gmail.com  Thu Sep 16 11:08:59 2010
From: kevin.a.mcgregor at gmail.com (Kevin McGregor)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:08:59 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=PT4eZY58bToU5FDfoRk6z1nzwCWg02-4=n-ZR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=PT4eZY58bToU5FDfoRk6z1nzwCWg02-4=n-ZR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimz5ms4LJZytJ1xmenGpYDnujCruCUQdLz6x5CH@mail.gmail.com>

I bet Bill Reid can!

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Montana Quiring <montanaq at gmail.com>wrote:

> I started this in Twitter and Facebook and so far Dan K. holds the
> record for oldest email...Jan 10, 1987
>
> Can anyone beat him?
>
> -Montana
> Blog and Aggregation Site:
> http://montanaquiring.info
> iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
> http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Thu Sep 16 11:43:47 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:43:47 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimz5ms4LJZytJ1xmenGpYDnujCruCUQdLz6x5CH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=PT4eZY58bToU5FDfoRk6z1nzwCWg02-4=n-ZR@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimz5ms4LJZytJ1xmenGpYDnujCruCUQdLz6x5CH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C924943.2070004@gmail.com>

On 10-09-16 11:08 AM, Kevin McGregor wrote:
> I bet Bill Reid can!

	You and I can probably come close if we can find our old Apple// hard 
drives.

				Later
				Mike



> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Montana Quiring<montanaq at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I started this in Twitter and Facebook and so far Dan K. holds the
>> record for oldest email...Jan 10, 1987
>>
>> Can anyone beat him?
>>
>> -Montana
>> Blog and Aggregation Site:
>> http://montanaquiring.info
>> iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
>> http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable


From grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca  Thu Sep 16 11:51:10 2010
From: grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca (Gilles Detillieux)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:51:10 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimz5ms4LJZytJ1xmenGpYDnujCruCUQdLz6x5CH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=PT4eZY58bToU5FDfoRk6z1nzwCWg02-4=n-ZR@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimz5ms4LJZytJ1xmenGpYDnujCruCUQdLz6x5CH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C924AFE.5030607@scrc.umanitoba.ca>

I know I've used the Unix "mail" program as early as the summer of 1980, 
but unfortunately I have no saved mail from back then.  Of course, this 
was not networked e-mail, just user to user on the same mini computer. 
My earliest saved e-mail is from Nov 15, 1989, sent via UUCP.  So Dan 
has me beat by almost 3 years.

On 09/16/2010 11:08 AM, Kevin McGregor wrote:
> I bet Bill Reid can!
> 
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Montana Quiring <montanaq at gmail.com 
> <mailto:montanaq at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     I started this in Twitter and Facebook and so far Dan K. holds the
>     record for oldest email...Jan 10, 1987
> 
>     Can anyone beat him?

-- 
Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)

From billreid at shaw.ca  Thu Sep 16 13:12:21 2010
From: billreid at shaw.ca (Bill Reid)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:12:21 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimz5ms4LJZytJ1xmenGpYDnujCruCUQdLz6x5CH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=PT4eZY58bToU5FDfoRk6z1nzwCWg02-4=n-ZR@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimz5ms4LJZytJ1xmenGpYDnujCruCUQdLz6x5CH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C925E05.4030700@shaw.ca>

Well I thought I could but the oldest email in my current mail directories is 
Oct 1, 1987 so Dan has got me beat.

But Kevin's suggestion prompted me to scan my home directory and I did find a 
saved email thread from my UofM days dated  7 May, 1996 to Gerry Miller.

I do have the old MBnet accounting records so if anyone is interested I can tell 
you when you registered for MBnet.

For example: Mike Pfaiffer  95/01/12

-- Bill

On 16/09/10 11:08, Kevin McGregor wrote:
> I bet Bill Reid can!
>
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Montana Quiring <montanaq at gmail.com
> <mailto:montanaq at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I started this in Twitter and Facebook and so far Dan K. holds the
>     record for oldest email...Jan 10, 1987
>
>     Can anyone beat him?
>
>     -Montana
>     Blog and Aggregation Site:
>     http://montanaquiring.info
>     iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
>     http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
>     _______________________________________________
>     Roundtable mailing list
>     Roundtable at muug.mb.ca <mailto:Roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
>     http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable

From john at johnlange.ca  Thu Sep 16 13:29:11 2010
From: john at johnlange.ca (john at johnlange.ca)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 18:29:11 +0000
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
In-Reply-To: <4C925E05.4030700@shaw.ca>
References: <AANLkTi=PT4eZY58bToU5FDfoRk6z1nzwCWg02-4=n-ZR@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTimz5ms4LJZytJ1xmenGpYDnujCruCUQdLz6x5CH@mail.gmail.com><4C925E05.4030700@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <212366352-1284661753-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-251715763-@bda2028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Do archived BBS postings count in this contest?

Most of us regular folks didn't get email until MBNet so no chance!

John

Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Reid <billreid at shaw.ca>
Sender: roundtable-bounces at muug.mb.ca
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:12:21 
To: <roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
Reply-To: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [RndTbl] Oldest email

Well I thought I could but the oldest email in my current mail directories is 
Oct 1, 1987 so Dan has got me beat.

But Kevin's suggestion prompted me to scan my home directory and I did find a 
saved email thread from my UofM days dated  7 May, 1996 to Gerry Miller.

I do have the old MBnet accounting records so if anyone is interested I can tell 
you when you registered for MBnet.

For example: Mike Pfaiffer  95/01/12

-- Bill

On 16/09/10 11:08, Kevin McGregor wrote:
> I bet Bill Reid can!
>
> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Montana Quiring <montanaq at gmail.com
> <mailto:montanaq at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I started this in Twitter and Facebook and so far Dan K. holds the
>     record for oldest email...Jan 10, 1987
>
>     Can anyone beat him?
>
>     -Montana
>     Blog and Aggregation Site:
>     http://montanaquiring.info
>     iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
>     http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
>     _______________________________________________
>     Roundtable mailing list
>     Roundtable at muug.mb.ca <mailto:Roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
>     http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
_______________________________________________
Roundtable mailing list
Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable


From billreid at shaw.ca  Thu Sep 16 13:38:08 2010
From: billreid at shaw.ca (Bill Reid)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:38:08 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
In-Reply-To: <212366352-1284661753-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-251715763-@bda2028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <AANLkTi=PT4eZY58bToU5FDfoRk6z1nzwCWg02-4=n-ZR@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimz5ms4LJZytJ1xmenGpYDnujCruCUQdLz6x5CH@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C925E05.4030700@shaw.ca>
	<212366352-1284661753-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-251715763-@bda2028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4C926410.5020604@shaw.ca>

Well John you registered on MBnet 94/04/29 so if you have nay mail from those 
days .....

I think UUCPNET mail may count since it often would go over the Internet at some 
point.

-- Bill

On 16/09/10 13:29, john at johnlange.ca wrote:
> Do archived BBS postings count in this contest?
>
> Most of us regular folks didn't get email until MBNet so no chance!
>
> John

From montanaq at gmail.com  Thu Sep 16 13:53:26 2010
From: montanaq at gmail.com (Montana Quiring)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:53:26 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
In-Reply-To: <212366352-1284661753-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-251715763-@bda2028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <AANLkTi=PT4eZY58bToU5FDfoRk6z1nzwCWg02-4=n-ZR@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimz5ms4LJZytJ1xmenGpYDnujCruCUQdLz6x5CH@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C925E05.4030700@shaw.ca>
	<212366352-1284661753-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-251715763-@bda2028.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim9v6+0qPXF_Bunnah1R_6kmNMac6qaCOyR_7CD@mail.gmail.com>

:)
I was thinking that oldest BBS post would probably be a contest unto it's own.
But if you have the info, I'm sure it still be interesting to read
what you find.

-Montana

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 1:29 PM,  <john at johnlange.ca> wrote:
> Do archived BBS postings count in this contest?
>
> Most of us regular folks didn't get email until MBNet so no chance!
>
> John
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Reid <billreid at shaw.ca>
> Sender: roundtable-bounces at muug.mb.ca
> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 13:12:21
> To: <roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
> Reply-To: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
> Subject: Re: [RndTbl] Oldest email
>
> Well I thought I could but the oldest email in my current mail directories is
> Oct 1, 1987 so Dan has got me beat.
>
> But Kevin's suggestion prompted me to scan my home directory and I did find a
> saved email thread from my UofM days dated ?7 May, 1996 to Gerry Miller.
>
> I do have the old MBnet accounting records so if anyone is interested I can tell
> you when you registered for MBnet.
>
> For example: Mike Pfaiffer ?95/01/12
>
> -- Bill
>
> On 16/09/10 11:08, Kevin McGregor wrote:
>> I bet Bill Reid can!
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Montana Quiring <montanaq at gmail.com
>> <mailto:montanaq at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> ? ? I started this in Twitter and Facebook and so far Dan K. holds the
>> ? ? record for oldest email...Jan 10, 1987
>>
>> ? ? Can anyone beat him?
>>
>> ? ? -Montana
>> ? ? Blog and Aggregation Site:
>> ? ? http://montanaquiring.info
>> ? ? iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
>> ? ? http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
>> ? ? _______________________________________________
>> ? ? Roundtable mailing list
>> ? ? Roundtable at muug.mb.ca <mailto:Roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
>> ? ? http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>


From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Thu Sep 16 16:02:58 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:02:58 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
In-Reply-To: <4C925E05.4030700@shaw.ca>
References: <AANLkTi=PT4eZY58bToU5FDfoRk6z1nzwCWg02-4=n-ZR@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTimz5ms4LJZytJ1xmenGpYDnujCruCUQdLz6x5CH@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C925E05.4030700@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <4C928602.5040806@gmail.com>

On 10-09-16 01:12 PM, Bill Reid wrote:
> Well I thought I could but the oldest email in my current mail directories is
> Oct 1, 1987 so Dan has got me beat.
>
> But Kevin's suggestion prompted me to scan my home directory and I did find a
> saved email thread from my UofM days dated  7 May, 1996 to Gerry Miller.
>
> I do have the old MBnet accounting records so if anyone is interested I can tell
> you when you registered for MBnet.
>
> For example: Mike Pfaiffer  95/01/12
>
> -- Bill

	I had a couple of Comp Sci accounts older than that. I graduated from 
the U of M in 91 and the U of W in 84. Before that I was BBSing with a 
300 baud modem on my Apple ][+.

	Ascii Express, ProTerm, and Kermit... Man that takes me back...

				Later
				Mike



> On 16/09/10 11:08, Kevin McGregor wrote:
>> I bet Bill Reid can!
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Montana Quiring<montanaq at gmail.com
>> <mailto:montanaq at gmail.com>>  wrote:
>>
>>      I started this in Twitter and Facebook and so far Dan K. holds the
>>      record for oldest email...Jan 10, 1987
>>
>>      Can anyone beat him?
>>
>>      -Montana
>>      Blog and Aggregation Site:
>>      http://montanaquiring.info
>>      iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
>>      http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      Roundtable mailing list
>>      Roundtable at muug.mb.ca<mailto:Roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
>>      http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable


From gerald.brandt at norscan.com  Thu Sep 16 16:14:39 2010
From: gerald.brandt at norscan.com (Gerald Brandt)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 16:14:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
In-Reply-To: <31624007.57251284671467592.JavaMail.root@v01wtl07>
Message-ID: <10272402.57271284671679267.JavaMail.root@v01wtl07>

I was sure I had some stored from 85 or 86, but I can't find them.  Oh well.

Gerald

From tim at fractaldragon.net  Thu Sep 16 16:50:59 2010
From: tim at fractaldragon.net (Tim Lavoie)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 17:50:59 -0400
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
In-Reply-To: <10272402.57271284671679267.JavaMail.root@v01wtl07>
References: <31624007.57251284671467592.JavaMail.root@v01wtl07>
	<10272402.57271284671679267.JavaMail.root@v01wtl07>
Message-ID: <20100916215059.GA11815@fractaldragon.net>

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 04:14:39PM -0500, Gerald Brandt wrote:
> I was sure I had some stored from 85 or 86, but I can't find them.  Oh well.
> 
> Gerald


Yeah, I thought I had some stone-age stuff too, but only visible to Feb
'95. Probably corresponds to setting up UUCP on Linux; older stuff was
on my (long-gone) Amiga, or Fido before that.

  Tim

From ve4drk at gmail.com  Thu Sep 16 20:00:39 2010
From: ve4drk at gmail.com (Dan Keizer)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 20:00:39 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Oldest email
In-Reply-To: <20100916215059.GA11815@fractaldragon.net>
References: <31624007.57251284671467592.JavaMail.root@v01wtl07>
	<10272402.57271284671679267.JavaMail.root@v01wtl07>
	<20100916215059.GA11815@fractaldragon.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim51GW7thVM=O035K47Z0sG9FbCxJEqugayvFfm@mail.gmail.com>

Funny - back in the days of mail gateways and forwarding -- we
actually used ".ARPA" domains :-)

OK -- so here's what I found on-line -- might have other stuff stuck
away somewhere .. but, that's work to find those!

Get a load out of the "from" address eh. :-)

Dan.

================================================================

Date: 10 Jan 87  1:50 +0600
From: Daniel Keizer <busu%cc.uofm.cdn%ubc.csnet at RELAY.CS.NET>
To: texhax at SU-SCORE.ARPA
Subject: flushbottom with minipages

A problem for all LaTeX'perts ...We have addresses in the minipage environment,
within the two-column environment with the report style with mark both on
the top of the page.   Our problem is that the bottom of the page is *not*
flush as it should be, rather, it is jagged right after the last possible
address that could be fit in.  My presumption about flush bottom would be that
it would flush the bottom out no matter what ... even putting extra spaces with
in the address or between them would be ok ...

Are we doing something wrong or approaching it from the wrong angle??
Thanks for the time.
Dan Keizer
BUSU at CC.UOFM.CDN  (EAN net)
BUSU at UOFMCC.BITNET (Bitnet of course)

===================================================================

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Tim Lavoie <tim at fractaldragon.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 04:14:39PM -0500, Gerald Brandt wrote:
>> I was sure I had some stored from 85 or 86, but I can't find them. ?Oh well.
>>
>> Gerald
>
>
> Yeah, I thought I had some stone-age stuff too, but only visible to Feb
> '95. Probably corresponds to setting up UUCP on Linux; older stuff was
> on my (long-gone) Amiga, or Fido before that.
>
> ?Tim
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>


From grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca  Fri Sep 17 16:08:00 2010
From: grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca (Gilles Detillieux)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:08:00 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts
Message-ID: <4C93D8B0.2010708@scrc.umanitoba.ca>

Every once in a while, some doofus points a web crawler at our web site 
and, ignoring the disallowed areas in our robots.txt file, starts 
crawling through some of our cgi-bin scripts at a rate of 4 to 8 hits a 
second.  This is particularly annoying with some of the more processor 
and disk intensive CGI programs, such as man2html, which also happens to 
generate lots of links back to itself.

Is there anything I can set up in Apache to throttle back and slow down 
remote hosts when they start hitting hard on cgi-bin?  I don't want to 
do anything that would adversely affect legitimate users, nor make 
important things like the manual pages hard to find by removing any 
public links to them.  But when a client starts making 10 or more GET 
requests on /cgi-bin in a 5 second period, it would be nice if I could 
get the server to progressively add longer and longer delays before 
servicing these requests, to keep the load down and prevent the server 
from thrashing.

I'd appreciate any tips.

Thanks,
Gilles

-- 
Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)

From helgi at binary.is  Fri Sep 17 16:19:42 2010
From: helgi at binary.is (Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:19:42 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts
In-Reply-To: <4C93D8B0.2010708@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
References: <4C93D8B0.2010708@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=GLs9WUy-Jx-DNYsQNwQwfXWKMB7bF53D=jzff@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure this is possible with Apache alone (anyone correct me if I'm
wrong), but I have an idea.

You didn't mention which language the CGI scripts are written in, but
assuming that you can edit them, you could create a temporary file when at
their top, delete it at the end, and skip the execution if the file exists.
That way, only one execution can be made at a time. I don't know how well it
fits your requirements, but that's the first thing that comes to mind.

Kind regards,
Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson
helgi at binary.is

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Gilles Detillieux <
grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca> wrote:

> Every once in a while, some doofus points a web crawler at our web site
> and, ignoring the disallowed areas in our robots.txt file, starts
> crawling through some of our cgi-bin scripts at a rate of 4 to 8 hits a
> second.  This is particularly annoying with some of the more processor
> and disk intensive CGI programs, such as man2html, which also happens to
> generate lots of links back to itself.
>
> Is there anything I can set up in Apache to throttle back and slow down
> remote hosts when they start hitting hard on cgi-bin?  I don't want to
> do anything that would adversely affect legitimate users, nor make
> important things like the manual pages hard to find by removing any
> public links to them.  But when a client starts making 10 or more GET
> requests on /cgi-bin in a 5 second period, it would be nice if I could
> get the server to progressively add longer and longer delays before
> servicing these requests, to keep the load down and prevent the server
> from thrashing.
>
> I'd appreciate any tips.
>
> Thanks,
> Gilles
>
> --
> Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
> Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
> Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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From sean at ertw.com  Fri Sep 17 16:26:42 2010
From: sean at ertw.com (Sean Walberg)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:26:42 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts
In-Reply-To: <4C93D8B0.2010708@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
References: <4C93D8B0.2010708@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi==nz72+O050mBWiEp1yVU6o3dhowEUexDUpnV+@mail.gmail.com>

There used to be a third party module, something like mod_limit or
mod_bwlimit, that lets you limit connection rates.

That said, the developer in me says "cache".  :)

Sean

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Gilles Detillieux <
grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca> wrote:

> Every once in a while, some doofus points a web crawler at our web site
> and, ignoring the disallowed areas in our robots.txt file, starts
> crawling through some of our cgi-bin scripts at a rate of 4 to 8 hits a
> second.  This is particularly annoying with some of the more processor
> and disk intensive CGI programs, such as man2html, which also happens to
> generate lots of links back to itself.
>
> Is there anything I can set up in Apache to throttle back and slow down
> remote hosts when they start hitting hard on cgi-bin?  I don't want to
> do anything that would adversely affect legitimate users, nor make
> important things like the manual pages hard to find by removing any
> public links to them.  But when a client starts making 10 or more GET
> requests on /cgi-bin in a 5 second period, it would be nice if I could
> get the server to progressively add longer and longer delays before
> servicing these requests, to keep the load down and prevent the server
> from thrashing.
>
> I'd appreciate any tips.
>
> Thanks,
> Gilles
>
> --
> Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
> Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
> Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>



-- 
Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com>    http://ertw.com/
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From tim at fractaldragon.net  Fri Sep 17 16:40:29 2010
From: tim at fractaldragon.net (Tim Lavoie)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:40:29 -0400
Subject: [RndTbl] slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts
In-Reply-To: <4C93D8B0.2010708@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
References: <4C93D8B0.2010708@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <20100917214029.GA20814@fractaldragon.net>

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 04:08:00PM -0500, Gilles Detillieux wrote:
> Every once in a while, some doofus points a web crawler at our web site 
> and, ignoring the disallowed areas in our robots.txt file, starts 
> crawling through some of our cgi-bin scripts at a rate of 4 to 8 hits a 
> second.  This is particularly annoying with some of the more processor 
> and disk intensive CGI programs, such as man2html, which also happens to 
> generate lots of links back to itself.
> 
> Is there anything I can set up in Apache to throttle back and slow down 
> remote hosts when they start hitting hard on cgi-bin?  I don't want to 
> do anything that would adversely affect legitimate users, nor make 
> important things like the manual pages hard to find by removing any 
> public links to them.  But when a client starts making 10 or more GET 
> requests on /cgi-bin in a 5 second period, it would be nice if I could 
> get the server to progressively add longer and longer delays before 
> servicing these requests, to keep the load down and prevent the server 
> from thrashing.

You could implement mod_security rules which enforce a delay after a
certain number of events. There is an example here which does something
similar based on failed logins. The main difference is that you don't
care about the response going back to the client.

http://www.packtpub.com/article/blocking-common-attacks-using-modsecurity-2.5-part3


If you use OSSEC (a spiffy package in its own right), you could get it
to block the IP for a while, but that may be a little harsh in that it
wouldn't be saying *why* the IP is rejected. In any case, the method I
think would be to look at the apache access log, with a rule configured
to punt that IP for a while if the logs access /cgi-bin too often within
a set period.

  Tim

From obwolfe at shaw.ca  Sat Sep 18 20:09:04 2010
From: obwolfe at shaw.ca (Brock Wolfe)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 20:09:04 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Roundtable Digest, Vol 69, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1284829202.9378.roundtable@muug.mb.ca>
References: <mailman.1.1284829202.9378.roundtable@muug.mb.ca>
Message-ID: <4C9562B0.8040001@shaw.ca>

  I prefer the DROP packet by IP ADDRESS solution.  Simple and to the 
point.  Worked really well for me on abusive crawlers from china and 
russia.  8-)

Brock

On 9/18/2010 12:00 PM, roundtable-request at muug.mb.ca wrote:
> Send Roundtable mailing list submissions to
> 	roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	roundtable-request at muug.mb.ca
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	roundtable-owner at muug.mb.ca
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Roundtable digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts (Gilles Detillieux)
>     2. Re: slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts
>        (Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson)
>     3. Re: slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts (Sean Walberg)
>     4. Re: slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts (Tim Lavoie)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:08:00 -0500
> From: Gilles Detillieux<grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
> Subject: [RndTbl] slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts
> To: MUUG Roundtable<roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
> Message-ID:<4C93D8B0.2010708 at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Every once in a while, some doofus points a web crawler at our web site
> and, ignoring the disallowed areas in our robots.txt file, starts
> crawling through some of our cgi-bin scripts at a rate of 4 to 8 hits a
> second.  This is particularly annoying with some of the more processor
> and disk intensive CGI programs, such as man2html, which also happens to
> generate lots of links back to itself.
>
> Is there anything I can set up in Apache to throttle back and slow down
> remote hosts when they start hitting hard on cgi-bin?  I don't want to
> do anything that would adversely affect legitimate users, nor make
> important things like the manual pages hard to find by removing any
> public links to them.  But when a client starts making 10 or more GET
> requests on /cgi-bin in a 5 second period, it would be nice if I could
> get the server to progressively add longer and longer delays before
> servicing these requests, to keep the load down and prevent the server
> from thrashing.
>
> I'd appreciate any tips.
>
> Thanks,
> Gilles
>

From Steve.Moffat at ca.ibm.com  Mon Sep 20 08:58:05 2010
From: Steve.Moffat at ca.ibm.com (Steve Moffat)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 08:58:05 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Help with external hard drive recovery
Message-ID: <OF121EC814.4885900C-ON852577A4.004B3D89-862577A4.004CBABC@ca.ibm.com>


A friend of mine contacted me this morning to ask for help with an external
USB hard Drive.
He believes the data is intact.  It just won't power on.
I don't have the time or tools to help him... if you do, please email me
directly and I'll pass along his contact info. (or I can get him to contact
you).
You can work out the $$ details with him.  I'm sure he'd be willing to
compensate.  The data is related to his work.
He is in the River Heights area.
The drive is:
Maxtor OneTouch Maxtor OneTouch III Turbo Edition (RAID 0/1, USB
2.0/FireWire 400/FireWire 800 (1TB))

If you'd rather just supply some hints and tips I can relay them to him.

Thanks!

I was going to put this on the "jobs at muug.mb.ca", but after reviewing some
of the posts there it seems they are oriented to "positions" rather than
piece work.

Steve Moffat
IBM Global Services
sjm at ca.ibm.com
(204)792-3245


From montanaq at gmail.com  Tue Sep 21 09:51:31 2010
From: montanaq at gmail.com (Montana Quiring)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 09:51:31 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] SIP for business
Message-ID: <AANLkTimtkSAmbaRMn7RHuLzp+bXn95tFCMK48LRb7Ebx@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

Any suggestions for a decent SIP provider in Canada.
I want a Winnipeg phone number to use for business calls, but I want
it to be VOIP with a soft phone client option. I want people to be
able to call this phone number from their land line/mobile phone.
I would like the softphone client to be non proprietary (multi-platform).
I don't want to run an Asterisk server in my basement (at this point). ;)
I want it to be reliable.

-Montana
Blog and Aggregation Site:
http://montanaquiring.info
iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps

From sean at ertw.com  Tue Sep 21 10:23:33 2010
From: sean at ertw.com (Sean Walberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:23:33 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] SIP for business
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimtkSAmbaRMn7RHuLzp+bXn95tFCMK48LRb7Ebx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimtkSAmbaRMn7RHuLzp+bXn95tFCMK48LRb7Ebx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik+sJfMdS6Rg2HAc+fGP62hKESNSK6BeLXBouxv@mail.gmail.com>

Les.net has been working great for me. SIP/IAX/H.323, and he'll even do
voice mail for you if you want. You can register a phone to his proxy.

Sean

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Montana Quiring <montanaq at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Any suggestions for a decent SIP provider in Canada.
> I want a Winnipeg phone number to use for business calls, but I want
> it to be VOIP with a soft phone client option. I want people to be
> able to call this phone number from their land line/mobile phone.
> I would like the softphone client to be non proprietary (multi-platform).
> I don't want to run an Asterisk server in my basement (at this point). ;)
> I want it to be reliable.
>
> -Montana
> Blog and Aggregation Site:
> http://montanaquiring.info
> iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
> http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>



-- 
Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com>    http://ertw.com/
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From ve4drk at gmail.com  Tue Sep 21 10:36:23 2010
From: ve4drk at gmail.com (Dan Keizer)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 10:36:23 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] SIP for business
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik+sJfMdS6Rg2HAc+fGP62hKESNSK6BeLXBouxv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimtkSAmbaRMn7RHuLzp+bXn95tFCMK48LRb7Ebx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik+sJfMdS6Rg2HAc+fGP62hKESNSK6BeLXBouxv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimg8_z95vq9ZS_tsJwAvJ6LtY06gY4PCSu8mFMz@mail.gmail.com>

I'd also recommend Les.  I have a number of DID's (phone#'s) through him.  I
have them generally pointed to my asterisk box, but I've also had them setup
to go to another soft-client on my pc, or on my iPhone, or a SPA3102 device
I have .. they all work well.  There is even the ability to route the
incoming call to a redirected phone # (ie: another land-line if you wish) --
and this can be done all dynamically in real-time on the self-serve web-page
he's setup.

You can even setup a fail-over -- if an incoming call can't connect to one
end-point, you can set it up to try another instead ...

Easy to use too .. and for me, it's cost effective.

Dan.

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com> wrote:

> Les.net has been working great for me. SIP/IAX/H.323, and he'll even do
> voice mail for you if you want. You can register a phone to his proxy.
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Montana Quiring <montanaq at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Any suggestions for a decent SIP provider in Canada.
>> I want a Winnipeg phone number to use for business calls, but I want
>> it to be VOIP with a soft phone client option. I want people to be
>> able to call this phone number from their land line/mobile phone.
>> I would like the softphone client to be non proprietary (multi-platform).
>> I don't want to run an Asterisk server in my basement (at this point). ;)
>> I want it to be reliable.
>>
>> -Montana
>> Blog and Aggregation Site:
>> http://montanaquiring.info
>> iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
>> http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com>    http://ertw.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
>
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From gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca  Tue Sep 21 11:21:57 2010
From: gedetil at cs.umanitoba.ca (Gilbert E. Detillieux)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 11:21:57 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] MUUG Board Elections - FINAL CALL for Nominations
Message-ID: <4C98DBA5.7020502@cs.umanitoba.ca>

Hear ye, hear ye!

This is FINAL CALL for nominees to participate in the election
for the MUUG board.  Those elected will serve from October 2010 until
October 2011.  The deadline to nominate yourself, or someone else, is
September 28, 2010.  Instructions follow.

The MUUG board is charged with coordinating the meetings and other
events by the group.  It's fun, and you get a role in guiding the group.
All are encouraged to apply.  (And a big "thank you" to those who have 
already done so!)

------------------------

MUUG Board Elections - Call for Nominations

Every October the Manitoba Unix User Group holds its Annual Meeting, the
main goals of which are to elect a new Board of Directors and to pass
any special resolutions.  (Aside from that, it is a regular meeting)
*Any MUUG member in good standing can be nominated to run for a position
on the Board.*

As of this writing, the following members of the current Board have let
their names stand for re-election:

Sean Cody		Senior System Admin.	Prime Focus VFX Services
Gilbert Detillieux	Systems Analyst		University of Manitoba
Michael Doob		Professor		University of Manitoba
Kevin McGregor		Network Analyst		City of Winnipeg
Doug Shewfelt		Systems Specialist	City of Winnipeg
Adam Thompson		Consultant		athompso.net
(Montana Quiring has withdrawn his nomination.)

Of course, this list is just a starting point.  Any member in good
standing of the group can be nominated simply by getting the support of
one other member.  If you feel you would like to contribute to the group
by running for a board position, please don't hesitate to do so.  (In
fact, we'd like to see the number of board members increase.)

If you want to be nominated, or to nominate someone else, send a letter
to the group's postal box or deliver it in person to a current board
member.  The letter must contain the name, title, and employer of the
nominee, along with a short (100 word or so) biography, and must contain
the signatures of the nominee and one other member.  The letter must be
received no later than September 28, 2010, which is 14 days prior to the
October 12 meeting.

Although the by-laws require that the nominations be done in writing,
with signatures, you can speed up the process by sending e-mail to
<election at muug.mb.ca>, with the above information, and sending the
signed paper copy later.  In this case, please include the e-mail
address of both the nominee and the supporter on the CC: list of the
message, so that all parties concerned have a record of the communication.

Nominees should familiarize themselves with the MUUG bylaws, found here:

	http://www.muug.mb.ca/pub/bylaws/

If you have any questions about the election or the nomination process,
please contact Gilbert Detillieux, either by phone (474-8161) during
business hours, or by e-mail to <election at muug.mb.ca> anytime.

Gilbert Detillieux
Election Committee Chair

------------------------

-- 
Gilbert E. Detillieux		E-mail: <gedetil at muug.mb.ca>
Manitoba UNIX User Group	Web:	http://www.muug.mb.ca/
PO Box 130 St-Boniface		Phone:  (204)474-8161
Winnipeg MB CANADA  R2H 3B4	Fax:    (204)474-7609

From montanaq at gmail.com  Tue Sep 21 13:41:51 2010
From: montanaq at gmail.com (Montana Quiring)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:41:51 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] SIP for business
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimg8_z95vq9ZS_tsJwAvJ6LtY06gY4PCSu8mFMz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimtkSAmbaRMn7RHuLzp+bXn95tFCMK48LRb7Ebx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik+sJfMdS6Rg2HAc+fGP62hKESNSK6BeLXBouxv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimg8_z95vq9ZS_tsJwAvJ6LtY06gY4PCSu8mFMz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=HZUXkFwB3o43QKGSf-_VhKAqENP0_55oYhGHo@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the info guys.
I just had a talk with Les and it sounds like a good deal.

Are there good hardware SIP phones in the city that people would recommend?

-Montana
Blog and Aggregation Site:
http://montanaquiring.info
iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps



On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Dan Keizer <ve4drk at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd also recommend Les. ?I have a number of DID's (phone#'s) through him. ?I
> have them generally pointed to my asterisk box, but I've also had them setup
> to go to another soft-client on my pc, or on my iPhone, or a SPA3102 device
> I have .. they all work well. ?There is even the ability to route the
> incoming call to a redirected phone # (ie: another land-line if you wish) --
> and this can be done all dynamically in real-time on the self-serve web-page
> he's setup.
> You can even setup a fail-over -- if an incoming call can't connect to one
> end-point, you can set it up to try another instead ...
> Easy to use too .. and for me, it's cost effective.
> Dan.
>
> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com> wrote:
>>
>> Les.net has been working great for me. SIP/IAX/H.323, and he'll even do
>> voice mail for you if you want. You can register a phone to his proxy.
>> Sean
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Montana Quiring <montanaq at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Any suggestions for a decent SIP provider in Canada.
>>> I want a Winnipeg phone number to use for business calls, but I want
>>> it to be VOIP with a soft phone client option. I want people to be
>>> able to call this phone number from their land line/mobile phone.
>>> I would like the softphone client to be non proprietary (multi-platform).
>>> I don't want to run an Asterisk server in my basement (at this point). ;)
>>> I want it to be reliable.
>>>
>>> -Montana
>>> Blog and Aggregation Site:
>>> http://montanaquiring.info
>>> iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
>>> http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Roundtable mailing list
>>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com>? ? http://ertw.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
>


From ve4drk at gmail.com  Tue Sep 21 14:06:25 2010
From: ve4drk at gmail.com (Dan Keizer)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:06:25 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] SIP for business
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=HZUXkFwB3o43QKGSf-_VhKAqENP0_55oYhGHo@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimtkSAmbaRMn7RHuLzp+bXn95tFCMK48LRb7Ebx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik+sJfMdS6Rg2HAc+fGP62hKESNSK6BeLXBouxv@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimg8_z95vq9ZS_tsJwAvJ6LtY06gY4PCSu8mFMz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=HZUXkFwB3o43QKGSf-_VhKAqENP0_55oYhGHo@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikpr-r+Y9Lxmo31-tzuLmPckxwhzPgTe=M8i=u3@mail.gmail.com>

you could either get a SIP hard-phone or get an adapter .. i use an spa3102
.. but it also allows interfacing to a land-line as well .. if you just want
the "phone" interface, then you can get a standard pap2-na device .. as long
as it's not locked to a provider.  Les may have some in stock you could buy,
or you can buy them on-line -- like I did ... (I did unlock a locked one
prior, but it's better to get one that is not locked or restricted in case
you reset the firmwares etc).

with a pap2-na device, you can then use a wireless home phone etc ...

Dan.

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Montana Quiring <montanaq at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the info guys.
> I just had a talk with Les and it sounds like a good deal.
>
> Are there good hardware SIP phones in the city that people would recommend?
>
> -Montana
> Blog and Aggregation Site:
> http://montanaquiring.info
> iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
> http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Dan Keizer <ve4drk at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'd also recommend Les.  I have a number of DID's (phone#'s) through him.
>  I
> > have them generally pointed to my asterisk box, but I've also had them
> setup
> > to go to another soft-client on my pc, or on my iPhone, or a SPA3102
> device
> > I have .. they all work well.  There is even the ability to route the
> > incoming call to a redirected phone # (ie: another land-line if you wish)
> --
> > and this can be done all dynamically in real-time on the self-serve
> web-page
> > he's setup.
> > You can even setup a fail-over -- if an incoming call can't connect to
> one
> > end-point, you can set it up to try another instead ...
> > Easy to use too .. and for me, it's cost effective.
> > Dan.
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Les.net has been working great for me. SIP/IAX/H.323, and he'll even do
> >> voice mail for you if you want. You can register a phone to his proxy.
> >> Sean
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Montana Quiring <montanaq at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> Any suggestions for a decent SIP provider in Canada.
> >>> I want a Winnipeg phone number to use for business calls, but I want
> >>> it to be VOIP with a soft phone client option. I want people to be
> >>> able to call this phone number from their land line/mobile phone.
> >>> I would like the softphone client to be non proprietary
> (multi-platform).
> >>> I don't want to run an Asterisk server in my basement (at this point).
> ;)
> >>> I want it to be reliable.
> >>>
> >>> -Montana
> >>> Blog and Aggregation Site:
> >>> http://montanaquiring.info
> >>> iPhone/Touch Apps I have bought:
> >>> http://appshopper.com/feed/user/antikx/myapps
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Roundtable mailing list
> >>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> >>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com>    http://ertw.com/
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Roundtable mailing list
> >> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> >> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Roundtable mailing list
> > Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> > http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> >
> >
>
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From grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca  Tue Sep 21 16:32:58 2010
From: grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca (Gilles Detillieux)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:32:58 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=GLs9WUy-Jx-DNYsQNwQwfXWKMB7bF53D=jzff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C93D8B0.2010708@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
	<AANLkTi=GLs9WUy-Jx-DNYsQNwQwfXWKMB7bF53D=jzff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C99248A.8050007@scrc.umanitoba.ca>

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.  In the end I went with 
Helgi's suggestion.  As I already had a wrapper script around man2html, 
it was pretty easy to add some quick tests involving a count file and 
locking link to do some speed limiting on the script.

The alternative, which would be more generally useful, but apparently 
more time and effort to set up, would be an add-on module for Apache, 
the most promising of which seemed to be mod_bwshare.  Unfortunately, 
none of these is included in the httpd package that comes with RHEL 5 
clones, and I don't know how much work it would be to install & 
configure this, and maintain it through updates to either its source or 
the httpd package.  I may look into this further if I run into further 
problems with other CGI programs, or if my patches to the man2html 
wrapper don't quite do the trick (though they seemed to hold up well to 
manual testing).

On 17/09/2010 4:19 PM, Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson wrote:
> I'm not sure this is possible with Apache alone (anyone correct me if
> I'm wrong), but I have an idea.
>
> You didn't mention which language the CGI scripts are written in, but
> assuming that you can edit them, you could create a temporary file when
> at their top, delete it at the end, and skip the execution if the file
> exists. That way, only one execution can be made at a time. I don't know
> how well it fits your requirements, but that's the first thing that
> comes to mind.
>
> Kind regards,
> Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson
> helgi at binary.is <mailto:helgi at binary.is>
>
> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Gilles Detillieux
> <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca <mailto:grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>> wrote:
>
>     Every once in a while, some doofus points a web crawler at our web site
>     and, ignoring the disallowed areas in our robots.txt file, starts
>     crawling through some of our cgi-bin scripts at a rate of 4 to 8 hits a
>     second.  This is particularly annoying with some of the more processor
>     and disk intensive CGI programs, such as man2html, which also happens to
>     generate lots of links back to itself.
>
>     Is there anything I can set up in Apache to throttle back and slow down
>     remote hosts when they start hitting hard on cgi-bin?  I don't want to
>     do anything that would adversely affect legitimate users, nor make
>     important things like the manual pages hard to find by removing any
>     public links to them.  But when a client starts making 10 or more GET
>     requests on /cgi-bin in a 5 second period, it would be nice if I could
>     get the server to progressively add longer and longer delays before
>     servicing these requests, to keep the load down and prevent the server
>     from thrashing.
>
>     I'd appreciate any tips.
>
>     Thanks,
>     Gilles

-- 
Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)

From grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca  Tue Sep 21 16:38:26 2010
From: grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca (Gilles Detillieux)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:38:26 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts
In-Reply-To: <4C9562B0.8040001@shaw.ca>
References: <mailman.1.1284829202.9378.roundtable@muug.mb.ca>
	<4C9562B0.8040001@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <4C9925D2.4000306@scrc.umanitoba.ca>

I'm really looking for an automated solution.  I suppose I could set 
something up using fail2ban to do this, but as I've never installed and 
configured that either, I don't know if this would be any easier than 
any of the add-on modules for Apache.  For now, the quick addition to my 
CGI wrapper script will probably do the trick.

On 18/09/2010 8:09 PM, Brock Wolfe wrote:
>    I prefer the DROP packet by IP ADDRESS solution.  Simple and to the
> point.  Worked really well for me on abusive crawlers from china and
> russia.  8-)
>
> Brock

-- 
Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)

From ve4drk at gmail.com  Tue Sep 21 16:58:35 2010
From: ve4drk at gmail.com (Dan Keizer)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:58:35 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] slowing httpd access to cgi-bin scripts
In-Reply-To: <4C9925D2.4000306@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
References: <mailman.1.1284829202.9378.roundtable@muug.mb.ca>
	<4C9562B0.8040001@shaw.ca> <4C9925D2.4000306@scrc.umanitoba.ca>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinaOV6-abSpMM0XWo8=pVXcsuitpR8RV7aOktHT@mail.gmail.com>

fail2ban would be a good solution for you, as it is easily configurable  --
but as you say, if you can do something similar with your own scripts, no
issue.
fail2ban is setup on the login/asterisk/apache side of things for me --
robert set it up for me :-)

Dan.

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Gilles Detillieux <
grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca> wrote:

> I'm really looking for an automated solution.  I suppose I could set
> something up using fail2ban to do this, but as I've never installed and
> configured that either, I don't know if this would be any easier than
> any of the add-on modules for Apache.  For now, the quick addition to my
> CGI wrapper script will probably do the trick.
>
> On 18/09/2010 8:09 PM, Brock Wolfe wrote:
> >    I prefer the DROP packet by IP ADDRESS solution.  Simple and to the
> > point.  Worked really well for me on abusive crawlers from china and
> > russia.  8-)
> >
> > Brock
>
> --
> Gilles R. Detillieux              E-mail: <grdetil at scrc.umanitoba.ca>
> Spinal Cord Research Centre       WWW:    http://www.scrc.umanitoba.ca/
> Dept. Physiology, U. of Manitoba  Winnipeg, MB  R3E 0J9  (Canada)
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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From sean at tinfoilhat.ca  Mon Sep 27 10:28:10 2010
From: sean at tinfoilhat.ca (Sean Cody)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 10:28:10 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
Message-ID: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>

We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.

Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to hear about?

That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious about but haven't found time to investigate?
What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are getting the full potential out of it?
Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people could benefit from?

Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.

-- 
Sean
P.S. While we would really like members to present RTFM, just giving us an idea of the things you want to learn about will help a lot.



From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Sep 27 12:36:15 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:36:15 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
Message-ID: <4CA0D60F.60109@gmail.com>

On 10-09-27 10:28 AM, Sean Cody wrote:
> We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.
>
> Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to hear about?
>
> That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious about but haven't found time to investigate?
> What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are getting the full potential out of it?
> Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people could benefit from?
>
> Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.
>

	If anyone wants, I can talk about a trio of commands. "cd", "pushd", 
and "popd". I can also give the standard lecture of how directories are 
created/removed/arranged.

	At a later date I can give a short demo of a cross-platform game called 
Warzone 2100. I can even demo a GameBoy emulator (I used to run a game 
oriented BBS with a friend and I guess it's still an area I pay a little 
attention to). An admitted departure from the system admin oriented 
presentations, but a break every now and then couldn't hurt. ;-)

				Later
				Mike

From sean at ertw.com  Mon Sep 27 12:45:15 2010
From: sean at ertw.com (Sean Walberg)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:45:15 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinYqvgFP8q_S+pqM+Ns+p-1KQCoPYP5EP-XnNG+@mail.gmail.com>

"cat", or at least the top 10 times it's unnecessary :)

Sean

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Sean Cody <sean at tinfoilhat.ca> wrote:

> We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.
>
> Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only
> reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to hear
> about?
>
> That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious about
> but haven't found time to investigate?
> What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are getting
> the full potential out of it?
> Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people could
> benefit from?
>
> Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.
>
> --
> Sean
> P.S. While we would really like members to present RTFM, just giving us an
> idea of the things you want to learn about will help a lot.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>



-- 
Sean Walberg <sean at ertw.com>    http://ertw.com/
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From helgi at binary.is  Mon Sep 27 12:42:23 2010
From: helgi at binary.is (Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:42:23 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikjC8J67ekx48Qij8=yf1iQvxuk7-i3Xvm5QPTh@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, all.

The other day I was trying to execute a command on all subdirectories
(recursively) and files, even though these files and directories contained
non-alphanumeric characters and space. I found my answer on StackOverflow
eventually, but there were a lot of different approaches to it, some
utilizing commands like "awk", "gawk" (which I'm told is just a GNU
version), but in my 13 years on Linux, I've never found the serenity to
learn all those crazy text processing commands.

So perhaps, if someone is well versed in text/file/directory processing, a
short lecture on the most powerful commands might be useful. Just an idea.
:)

Kind regards,
Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson
helgi at binary.s

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Sean Cody <sean at tinfoilhat.ca> wrote:

> We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.
>
> Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only
> reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to hear
> about?
>
> That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious about
> but haven't found time to investigate?
> What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are getting
> the full potential out of it?
> Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people could
> benefit from?
>
> Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.
>
> --
> Sean
> P.S. While we would really like members to present RTFM, just giving us an
> idea of the things you want to learn about will help a lot.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Sep 27 13:53:38 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 13:53:38 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikjC8J67ekx48Qij8=yf1iQvxuk7-i3Xvm5QPTh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
	<AANLkTikjC8J67ekx48Qij8=yf1iQvxuk7-i3Xvm5QPTh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DFF24A69-7DDF-4946-ACC8-C545A61860B9@GMail.com>

On 2010-09-27, at 12:42 PM, Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson wrote:

> Hi, all.
> 
> The other day I was trying to execute a command on all subdirectories (recursively) and files, even though these files and directories contained non-alphanumeric characters and space. I found my answer on StackOverflow eventually, but there were a lot of different approaches to it, some utilizing commands like "awk", "gawk" (which I'm told is just a GNU version), but in my 13 years on Linux, I've never found the serenity to learn all those crazy text processing commands.
> 
> So perhaps, if someone is well versed in text/file/directory processing, a short lecture on the most powerful commands might be useful. Just an idea. :)

	A quick response and test of a newly configured mail program... When dealing with filenames with "evil characters" you can always enclose the filename in single quotes ("'"). I use this when dealing with video files someone created under M$.

> Kind regards,
> Helgi Hrafn Gunnarsson
> helgi at binary.s
> 

				Later
				Mike




> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Sean Cody <sean at tinfoilhat.ca> wrote:
> We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.
> 
> Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to hear about?
> 
> That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious about but haven't found time to investigate?
> What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are getting the full potential out of it?
> Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people could benefit from?
> 
> Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.
> 
> --
> Sean
> P.S. While we would really like members to present RTFM, just giving us an idea of the things you want to learn about will help a lot.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable



From kel at kelweb.ca  Mon Sep 27 18:54:59 2010
From: kel at kelweb.ca (Kelly Leveille)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:54:59 +0000
Subject: [RndTbl] Tangent: Re:  RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <4CA0D60F.60109@gmail.com>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca><4CA0D60F.60109@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1500235357-1285631674-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2086675024-@bda2703.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Mike's Warzone 2100 demo offer gave me an idea...

Has there ever been a MUUG game night? Perhaps we could vote on 1 or 2 favorite open source games & use one of the meetings (Xmas Party) as a LAN party? We could do the round-table first & then LAN party for any who wanted to stay. 

Just an idea. 

Kelly

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Pfaiffer <high.res.mike at gmail.com>
Sender: roundtable-bounces at muug.mb.ca
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:36:15 
To: Continuation of Round Table discussion<roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
Reply-To: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.

On 10-09-27 10:28 AM, Sean Cody wrote:
> We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.
>
> Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to hear about?
>
> That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious about but haven't found time to investigate?
> What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are getting the full potential out of it?
> Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people could benefit from?
>
> Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.
>

	If anyone wants, I can talk about a trio of commands. "cd", "pushd", 
and "popd". I can also give the standard lecture of how directories are 
created/removed/arranged.

	At a later date I can give a short demo of a cross-platform game called 
Warzone 2100. I can even demo a GameBoy emulator (I used to run a game 
oriented BBS with a friend and I guess it's still an area I pay a little 
attention to). An admitted departure from the system admin oriented 
presentations, but a break every now and then couldn't hurt. ;-)

				Later
				Mike
_______________________________________________
Roundtable mailing list
Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable


From ummar143 at shaw.ca  Mon Sep 27 19:03:46 2010
From: ummar143 at shaw.ca (Dan Martin)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:03:46 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
Message-ID: <2FC56C2D-3972-42E4-976C-1DD3379E117F@shaw.ca>

I've missed some meetings, so I don't know if we covered rsync - I certainly wouldn't mind knowing a bit more about that.

I would also be interested in repository / versionning commands, like CVS, subversion, or Git.

-Dan Martin

On 2010-09-27, at 10:28 AM, Sean Cody wrote:

> We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.
> 
> Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to hear about?
> 
> That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious about but haven't found time to investigate?
> What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are getting the full potential out of it?
> Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people could benefit from?
> 
> Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.
> 
> -- 
> Sean
> P.S. While we would really like members to present RTFM, just giving us an idea of the things you want to learn about will help a lot.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable

Dan Martin
GP Hospital Practitioner
Computer Scientist
ummar143 at shaw.ca
(204) 831-1746
answering machine always on



From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Mon Sep 27 19:26:48 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:26:48 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <2FC56C2D-3972-42E4-976C-1DD3379E117F@shaw.ca>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
	<2FC56C2D-3972-42E4-976C-1DD3379E117F@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <4CA13648.6050700@gmail.com>

On 10-09-27 07:03 PM, Dan Martin wrote:
> I've missed some meetings, so I don't know if we covered rsync - I certainly wouldn't mind knowing a bit more about that.
>
> I would also be interested in repository / versionning commands, like CVS, subversion, or Git.

	I don't think we covered rsync directly. I used it a total of three 
times. It seems there is a little problem with the Mac version 
(especially with 10.4). If is is covered I'd like to suggest the 
presenter let us know how to update to the latest version with the Mac.

	Speaking of Mac stuff (this ought to interest you and Lindsay)... Since 
it came up in an earlier conversation, it might be useful to have a 
presentation on MacPorts, Fink, etc.. I've used it a couple of times 
successfully and once unsuccessfully. No doubt there are some 
features/tweaks we don't know about. ;-)

> -Dan Martin

				Later
				Mike



>
> On 2010-09-27, at 10:28 AM, Sean Cody wrote:
>
>> We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.
>>
>> Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to hear about?
>>
>> That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious about but haven't found time to investigate?
>> What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are getting the full potential out of it?
>> Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people could benefit from?
>>
>> Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.
>>
>> --
>> Sean
>> P.S. While we would really like members to present RTFM, just giving us an idea of the things you want to learn about will help a lot.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
> Dan Martin
> GP Hospital Practitioner
> Computer Scientist
> ummar143 at shaw.ca
> (204) 831-1746
> answering machine always on
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable


From peter at pogma.com  Mon Sep 27 21:17:24 2010
From: peter at pogma.com (Peter O'Gorman)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:17:24 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <4CA13648.6050700@gmail.com>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>	<2FC56C2D-3972-42E4-976C-1DD3379E117F@shaw.ca>
	<4CA13648.6050700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CA15034.5040706@pogma.com>

On 09/27/2010 07:26 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:

>
> 	Speaking of Mac stuff (this ought to interest you and Lindsay)... Since
> it came up in an earlier conversation, it might be useful to have a
> presentation on MacPorts, Fink, etc.. I've used it a couple of times
> successfully and once unsuccessfully. No doubt there are some
> features/tweaks we don't know about. ;-)


I could do something on this (I was one of the project leads for the 
Fink project for a few years and have a fair knowledge of MacPorts).

Alternatively, I could do something quick on the autotools (also known 
as autocrap), if there is interest in that.

Peter

From ummar143 at shaw.ca  Mon Sep 27 21:27:18 2010
From: ummar143 at shaw.ca (Dan Martin)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:27:18 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <4CA15034.5040706@pogma.com>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
	<2FC56C2D-3972-42E4-976C-1DD3379E117F@shaw.ca>
	<4CA13648.6050700@gmail.com> <4CA15034.5040706@pogma.com>
Message-ID: <E9DE40D6-651B-46F7-9564-E89D8EC30543@shaw.ca>


On 2010-09-27, at 9:17 PM, Peter O'Gorman wrote:

> On 09/27/2010 07:26 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 	Speaking of Mac stuff (this ought to interest you and Lindsay)... Since
>> it came up in an earlier conversation, it might be useful to have a
>> presentation on MacPorts, Fink, etc.. I've used it a couple of times
>> successfully and once unsuccessfully. No doubt there are some
>> features/tweaks we don't know about. ;-)
> 
> 
> I could do something on this (I was one of the project leads for the 
> Fink project for a few years and have a fair knowledge of MacPorts).
> 
> Alternatively, I could do something quick on the autotools (also known 
> as autocrap), if there is interest in that.

Cool!  Any possibility you could do both?

> 
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable

Dan Martin
GP Hospital Practitioner
Computer Scientist
ummar143 at shaw.ca
(204) 831-1746
answering machine always on


From athompso at athompso.net  Mon Sep 27 21:21:27 2010
From: athompso at athompso.net (Adam Thompson)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 02:21:27 +0000
Subject: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
Message-ID: <1545649206-1285640489-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1119531456-@bda957.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Ooh, I'd love to get *any* insight into what autotools does.  OTOH, that could easily fly right over everyone's heads at the meeting (including mine)... Thoughts on that, anyone?

I certainly would second doing an RTFM bit on fink(1) (or is it (8)?).  Any serious MacOS user (IMHO) eventually winds up needing one of those projects for *something* or other.

And another hat to throw into the ring: make(1).

-Adam


------Original Message------
From: O'Gorman, Peter
Sender: roundtable-bounces at muug.mb.ca
To: Roundtable, MUUG
Cc: Pfaiffer, Mike
ReplyTo: Roundtable, MUUG
Subject: Re: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
Sent: Sep 27, 2010 21:17

On 09/27/2010 07:26 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:

>
> 	Speaking of Mac stuff (this ought to interest you and Lindsay)... Since
> it came up in an earlier conversation, it might be useful to have a
> presentation on MacPorts, Fink, etc.. I've used it a couple of times
> successfully and once unsuccessfully. No doubt there are some
> features/tweaks we don't know about. ;-)


I could do something on this (I was one of the project leads for the 
Fink project for a few years and have a fair knowledge of MacPorts).

Alternatively, I could do something quick on the autotools (also known 
as autocrap), if there is interest in that.

Peter
_______________________________________________
Roundtable mailing list
Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable




From athompso at athompso.net  Mon Sep 27 23:21:53 2010
From: athompso at athompso.net (Adam Thompson)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:21:53 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Last day for nominations!
Message-ID: <030d01cb5ec4$adb67d10$09237730$@athompso.net>

Reminder - today is the last day for nominations to the Board!  If you 
don't have your nominations papers in by midnight, you cannot stand for 
election at the AGM next month.

(N.B. Historically, the Elections Committee has accepted electronic 
notices of nomination, provided the signed paper copy is forwarded to us 
promptly.  So if you'd like to stand for election, get ONE OTHER CURRENT 
MEMBER to nominate you ASAP!)

-Adam Thompson
 athompso at muug.mb.ca
 athompso at athompso.net
 (204) 291-7950 [if you have any last-minute questions before midnight, I 
suppose]




From kevin.a.mcgregor at gmail.com  Tue Sep 28 08:42:09 2010
From: kevin.a.mcgregor at gmail.com (Kevin McGregor)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:42:09 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Tangent: Re: RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <1500235357-1285631674-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2086675024-@bda2703.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
	<4CA0D60F.60109@gmail.com>
	<1500235357-1285631674-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2086675024-@bda2703.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim+ajPS3nr_itoRZ4PO_YXc6aWiDJU+mYX+EiOb@mail.gmail.com>

I like the idea, and I'd definitely attend and participate! I'm not sure how
much fun it would be for some of the fuddy-duddies in the group, though. ;-)
 Mind you, if the game(s) have an "observer" mode (BZflag is one that has
this), we could throw that on the projector and make it more of a show.

Kevin

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Kelly Leveille <kel at kelweb.ca> wrote:

> Mike's Warzone 2100 demo offer gave me an idea...
>
> Has there ever been a MUUG game night? Perhaps we could vote on 1 or 2
> favorite open source games & use one of the meetings (Xmas Party) as a LAN
> party? We could do the round-table first & then LAN party for any who wanted
> to stay.
>
> Just an idea.
>
> Kelly
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Pfaiffer <high.res.mike at gmail.com>
> Sender: roundtable-bounces at muug.mb.ca
> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:36:15
> To: Continuation of Round Table discussion<roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
> Reply-To: Continuation of Round Table discussion <roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
> Subject: Re: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
>
> On 10-09-27 10:28 AM, Sean Cody wrote:
> > We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.
> >
> > Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only
> reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to hear
> about?
> >
> > That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious
> about but haven't found time to investigate?
> > What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are getting
> the full potential out of it?
> > Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people could
> benefit from?
> >
> > Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.
> >
>
>        If anyone wants, I can talk about a trio of commands. "cd", "pushd",
> and "popd". I can also give the standard lecture of how directories are
> created/removed/arranged.
>
>        At a later date I can give a short demo of a cross-platform game
> called
> Warzone 2100. I can even demo a GameBoy emulator (I used to run a game
> oriented BBS with a friend and I guess it's still an area I pay a little
> attention to). An admitted departure from the system admin oriented
> presentations, but a break every now and then couldn't hurt. ;-)
>
>                                Later
>                                Mike
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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From kevin.a.mcgregor at gmail.com  Tue Sep 28 08:45:48 2010
From: kevin.a.mcgregor at gmail.com (Kevin McGregor)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:45:48 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <1545649206-1285640489-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1119531456-@bda957.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1545649206-1285640489-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1119531456-@bda957.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimV=kKgQaAob0ug6ATsnmuw-g+XEa3099HoS68z@mail.gmail.com>

You might be interested in a recent No Starch Press publication:
Autotools: <goog_1305231515>A
Practitioner's Guide to GNU Autoconf, Automake, and
Libtool<http://nostarch.com/autotools.htm>

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Adam Thompson <athompso at athompso.net>wrote:

> Ooh, I'd love to get *any* insight into what autotools does.  OTOH, that
> could easily fly right over everyone's heads at the meeting (including
> mine)... Thoughts on that, anyone?
>
> I certainly would second doing an RTFM bit on fink(1) (or is it (8)?).  Any
> serious MacOS user (IMHO) eventually winds up needing one of those projects
> for *something* or other.
>
> And another hat to throw into the ring: make(1).
>
> -Adam
>
>
> ------Original Message------
> From: O'Gorman, Peter
> Sender: roundtable-bounces at muug.mb.ca
> To: Roundtable, MUUG
> Cc: Pfaiffer, Mike
> ReplyTo: Roundtable, MUUG
> Subject: Re: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
> Sent: Sep 27, 2010 21:17
>
> On 09/27/2010 07:26 PM, Mike Pfaiffer wrote:
>
> >
> >       Speaking of Mac stuff (this ought to interest you and Lindsay)...
> Since
> > it came up in an earlier conversation, it might be useful to have a
> > presentation on MacPorts, Fink, etc.. I've used it a couple of times
> > successfully and once unsuccessfully. No doubt there are some
> > features/tweaks we don't know about. ;-)
>
>
> I could do something on this (I was one of the project leads for the
> Fink project for a few years and have a fair knowledge of MacPorts).
>
> Alternatively, I could do something quick on the autotools (also known
> as autocrap), if there is interest in that.
>
> Peter
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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From peter at pogma.com  Tue Sep 28 09:09:57 2010
From: peter at pogma.com (Peter O'Gorman)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 09:09:57 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Autotools book (was: Re:  RTFM brainstorm.)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimV=kKgQaAob0ug6ATsnmuw-g+XEa3099HoS68z@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1545649206-1285640489-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1119531456-@bda957.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTimV=kKgQaAob0ug6ATsnmuw-g+XEa3099HoS68z@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CA1F735.2000006@pogma.com>

On 09/28/2010 08:45 AM, Kevin McGregor wrote:
> You might be interested in a recent No Starch Press publication:
> Autotools: <goog_1305231515>A Practitioner's Guide to GNU Autoconf,
> Automake, and Libtool <http://nostarch.com/autotools.htm>
>

Yes, I think it's probably a pretty good book. John spent a few years 
hanging out on the lists while he was writing it, asking occasional 
questions, and answering others.

He wrote this also:
http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/books/autotools_a_guide_to_autoconf_automake_libtool

Peter




From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Tue Sep 28 10:54:28 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 10:54:28 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Tangent: Re: RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim+ajPS3nr_itoRZ4PO_YXc6aWiDJU+mYX+EiOb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>	<4CA0D60F.60109@gmail.com>	<1500235357-1285631674-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2086675024-@bda2703.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTim+ajPS3nr_itoRZ4PO_YXc6aWiDJU+mYX+EiOb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CA20FB4.40108@gmail.com>

On 10-09-28 08:42 AM, Kevin McGregor wrote:
> I like the idea, and I'd definitely attend and participate! I'm not sure how
> much fun it would be for some of the fuddy-duddies in the group, though. ;-)
>   Mind you, if the game(s) have an "observer" mode (BZflag is one that has
> this), we could throw that on the projector and make it more of a show.

	If someone knows of a game in addition to BZflag with an observer mode 
maybe we could make a list. This brings up an interesting point... Will 
IBM let us use their network if a lot of people bring in their machines 
and start playing games?

	It occurs to me we could also have an educational component to the 
"game night". The first item is how to set up multi-player games 
directly in Linux/Mac/BSD/whatever. The second could be how to do the 
same with virtual machines. Going from the specific to the general, one 
could extend these techniques to a more generic connection of networking 
software.

> Kevin

				Later
				Mike



>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Kelly Leveille<kel at kelweb.ca>  wrote:
>
>> Mike's Warzone 2100 demo offer gave me an idea...
>>
>> Has there ever been a MUUG game night? Perhaps we could vote on 1 or 2
>> favorite open source games&  use one of the meetings (Xmas Party) as a LAN
>> party? We could do the round-table first&  then LAN party for any who wanted
>> to stay.
>>
>> Just an idea.
>>
>> Kelly
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mike Pfaiffer<high.res.mike at gmail.com>
>> Sender: roundtable-bounces at muug.mb.ca
>> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:36:15
>> To: Continuation of Round Table discussion<roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
>> Reply-To: Continuation of Round Table discussion<roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
>> Subject: Re: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
>>
>> On 10-09-27 10:28 AM, Sean Cody wrote:
>>> We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.
>>>
>>> Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only
>> reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to hear
>> about?
>>>
>>> That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious
>> about but haven't found time to investigate?
>>> What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are getting
>> the full potential out of it?
>>> Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people could
>> benefit from?
>>>
>>> Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.
>>>
>>
>>         If anyone wants, I can talk about a trio of commands. "cd", "pushd",
>> and "popd". I can also give the standard lecture of how directories are
>> created/removed/arranged.
>>
>>         At a later date I can give a short demo of a cross-platform game
>> called
>> Warzone 2100. I can even demo a GameBoy emulator (I used to run a game
>> oriented BBS with a friend and I guess it's still an area I pay a little
>> attention to). An admitted departure from the system admin oriented
>> presentations, but a break every now and then couldn't hurt. ;-)
>>
>>                                 Later
>>                                 Mike
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable


From kevin.a.mcgregor at gmail.com  Tue Sep 28 13:53:11 2010
From: kevin.a.mcgregor at gmail.com (Kevin McGregor)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:53:11 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Tangent: Re: RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <4CA20FB4.40108@gmail.com>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>
	<4CA0D60F.60109@gmail.com>
	<1500235357-1285631674-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2086675024-@bda2703.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTim+ajPS3nr_itoRZ4PO_YXc6aWiDJU+mYX+EiOb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CA20FB4.40108@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimdhDpG0zok+V=BE4grZVzG-HPdSz4+5582Qqz8@mail.gmail.com>

Going from the general to the specific, I'd say
 - the game(s) would be decided and announced in advance
 - each participant is responsible for bringing their own suitable hardware
 - each participant is responsible for pre-installing the selected game and
performing any other set up required before the meeting starts
 - I could bring my old-school 16-port 10 Mb/s hub (!), and we wouldn't use
IBM's network AT ALL
 - in the case of BZflag, there is a server portion which can run on a
suitably-configured Linux/BSD box (virtual or not) which could lead to some
non-game-related discussion

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Mike Pfaiffer <high.res.mike at gmail.com>wrote:

> On 10-09-28 08:42 AM, Kevin McGregor wrote:
> > I like the idea, and I'd definitely attend and participate! I'm not sure
> how
> > much fun it would be for some of the fuddy-duddies in the group, though.
> ;-)
> >   Mind you, if the game(s) have an "observer" mode (BZflag is one that
> has
> > this), we could throw that on the projector and make it more of a show.
>
>         If someone knows of a game in addition to BZflag with an observer
> mode
> maybe we could make a list. This brings up an interesting point... Will
> IBM let us use their network if a lot of people bring in their machines
> and start playing games?
>
>        It occurs to me we could also have an educational component to the
> "game night". The first item is how to set up multi-player games
> directly in Linux/Mac/BSD/whatever. The second could be how to do the
> same with virtual machines. Going from the specific to the general, one
> could extend these techniques to a more generic connection of networking
> software.
>
> > Kevin
>
>                                Later
>                                 Mike
>
>
>
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Kelly Leveille<kel at kelweb.ca>  wrote:
> >
> >> Mike's Warzone 2100 demo offer gave me an idea...
> >>
> >> Has there ever been a MUUG game night? Perhaps we could vote on 1 or 2
> >> favorite open source games&  use one of the meetings (Xmas Party) as a
> LAN
> >> party? We could do the round-table first&  then LAN party for any who
> wanted
> >> to stay.
> >>
> >> Just an idea.
> >>
> >> Kelly
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Mike Pfaiffer<high.res.mike at gmail.com>
> >> Sender: roundtable-bounces at muug.mb.ca
> >> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:36:15
> >> To: Continuation of Round Table discussion<roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
> >> Reply-To: Continuation of Round Table discussion<roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
> >> Subject: Re: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
> >>
> >> On 10-09-27 10:28 AM, Sean Cody wrote:
> >>> We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.
> >>>
> >>> Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only
> >> reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to
> hear
> >> about?
> >>>
> >>> That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious
> >> about but haven't found time to investigate?
> >>> What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are
> getting
> >> the full potential out of it?
> >>> Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people
> could
> >> benefit from?
> >>>
> >>> Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.
> >>>
> >>
> >>         If anyone wants, I can talk about a trio of commands. "cd",
> "pushd",
> >> and "popd". I can also give the standard lecture of how directories are
> >> created/removed/arranged.
> >>
> >>         At a later date I can give a short demo of a cross-platform game
> >> called
> >> Warzone 2100. I can even demo a GameBoy emulator (I used to run a game
> >> oriented BBS with a friend and I guess it's still an area I pay a little
> >> attention to). An admitted departure from the system admin oriented
> >> presentations, but a break every now and then couldn't hurt. ;-)
> >>
> >>                                 Later
> >>                                 Mike
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Roundtable mailing list
> >> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> >> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Roundtable mailing list
> >> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> >> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Roundtable mailing list
> > Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> > http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>
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From high.res.mike at gmail.com  Tue Sep 28 14:04:55 2010
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 14:04:55 -0500
Subject: [RndTbl] Tangent: Re: RTFM brainstorm.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimdhDpG0zok+V=BE4grZVzG-HPdSz4+5582Qqz8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D1964413-B31F-4A74-BD95-2403D654B1F1@tinfoilhat.ca>	<4CA0D60F.60109@gmail.com>	<1500235357-1285631674-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2086675024-@bda2703.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>	<AANLkTim+ajPS3nr_itoRZ4PO_YXc6aWiDJU+mYX+EiOb@mail.gmail.com>	<4CA20FB4.40108@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimdhDpG0zok+V=BE4grZVzG-HPdSz4+5582Qqz8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CA23C57.4060803@gmail.com>

On 10-09-28 01:53 PM, Kevin McGregor wrote:
> Going from the general to the specific, I'd say
>   - the game(s) would be decided and announced in advance
>   - each participant is responsible for bringing their own suitable hardware
>   - each participant is responsible for pre-installing the selected game and
> performing any other set up required before the meeting starts
>   - I could bring my old-school 16-port 10 Mb/s hub (!), and we wouldn't use
> IBM's network AT ALL
>   - in the case of BZflag, there is a server portion which can run on a
> suitably-configured Linux/BSD box (virtual or not) which could lead to some
> non-game-related discussion

	We may need a router. I'm 95% certain we could bring one.

				Later
				Mike



> On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Mike Pfaiffer<high.res.mike at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On 10-09-28 08:42 AM, Kevin McGregor wrote:
>>> I like the idea, and I'd definitely attend and participate! I'm not sure
>> how
>>> much fun it would be for some of the fuddy-duddies in the group, though.
>> ;-)
>>>    Mind you, if the game(s) have an "observer" mode (BZflag is one that
>> has
>>> this), we could throw that on the projector and make it more of a show.
>>
>>          If someone knows of a game in addition to BZflag with an observer
>> mode
>> maybe we could make a list. This brings up an interesting point... Will
>> IBM let us use their network if a lot of people bring in their machines
>> and start playing games?
>>
>>         It occurs to me we could also have an educational component to the
>> "game night". The first item is how to set up multi-player games
>> directly in Linux/Mac/BSD/whatever. The second could be how to do the
>> same with virtual machines. Going from the specific to the general, one
>> could extend these techniques to a more generic connection of networking
>> software.
>>
>>> Kevin
>>
>>                                 Later
>>                                  Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Kelly Leveille<kel at kelweb.ca>   wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mike's Warzone 2100 demo offer gave me an idea...
>>>>
>>>> Has there ever been a MUUG game night? Perhaps we could vote on 1 or 2
>>>> favorite open source games&   use one of the meetings (Xmas Party) as a
>> LAN
>>>> party? We could do the round-table first&   then LAN party for any who
>> wanted
>>>> to stay.
>>>>
>>>> Just an idea.
>>>>
>>>> Kelly
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mike Pfaiffer<high.res.mike at gmail.com>
>>>> Sender: roundtable-bounces at muug.mb.ca
>>>> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:36:15
>>>> To: Continuation of Round Table discussion<roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
>>>> Reply-To: Continuation of Round Table discussion<roundtable at muug.mb.ca>
>>>> Subject: Re: [RndTbl] RTFM brainstorm.
>>>>
>>>> On 10-09-27 10:28 AM, Sean Cody wrote:
>>>>> We are quickly powering through our current RTFM pool.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the point of the exercise is to educate the group it seems only
>>>> reasonable to find out what commands/systems the group would like to
>> hear
>>>> about?
>>>>>
>>>>> That being said, is there any command/system you were always curious
>>>> about but haven't found time to investigate?
>>>>> What about a command you are using but you are unsure if you are
>> getting
>>>> the full potential out of it?
>>>>> Any particular command you enjoy using that you think other people
>> could
>>>> benefit from?
>>>>>
>>>>> Let us know and we'll add it to the pool.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          If anyone wants, I can talk about a trio of commands. "cd",
>> "pushd",
>>>> and "popd". I can also give the standard lecture of how directories are
>>>> created/removed/arranged.
>>>>
>>>>          At a later date I can give a short demo of a cross-platform game
>>>> called
>>>> Warzone 2100. I can even demo a GameBoy emulator (I used to run a game
>>>> oriented BBS with a friend and I guess it's still an area I pay a little
>>>> attention to). An admitted departure from the system admin oriented
>>>> presentations, but a break every now and then couldn't hurt. ;-)
>>>>
>>>>                                  Later
>>>>                                  Mike
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Roundtable mailing list
>>>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>>>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Roundtable mailing list
>>>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>>>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Roundtable mailing list
>>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Roundtable mailing list
>> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
>> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Roundtable mailing list
> Roundtable at muug.mb.ca
> http://www.muug.mb.ca/mailman/listinfo/roundtable